***Official*** West Indies in New Zealand 2013/14

[Prince EWS]

Cummins was good in the international limited overs games he played which caught the eye, so maybe Milne would be in the picture if he averaged less than 140 in either T20Is or ODIs.

Every piece of evidence so far, aside from watching him bowl, really does just point to Milne being wholly average. It's not a small sample size thing and there are no redeeming statistics for him. He needs to start actually taking some wickets in something. I still think it'll happen eventually, but I would not be backing him to do better than Wagner in the third Test at all.

 

[Prince EWS]

Well, it's certainly a travesty that Adams didn't get more chances, but I wouldn't be too hasty in assuming that he would've made it in test cricket just because he's spent years carving up for Notts. Afterall, Jeets is in the form of his life for Warks and it didn't exactly translate into buckets of wickets in test cricket. Besides Adams though, I can't think of too many other missed opportunities for call ups. That was the time period when the Academy generation should've been coming into their prime...except of course they didn't because they were all stretched out on operating tables around the country.

Mills was pretty harshly dropped after destroying England at home IMO; looked like he was finally finding his feet as a Test bowler and was discarded not long after. I think he too had fitness issues but I thought he had it in him to be a better contributor than late-career Martin for a while.

 

[Flem274*]

Career record still tidy to be fair. 37 @ 29. But yes he needs to get back to bowling what he did for NZ A quicksmart. Other sides might have dropped him for a safe but unspectacular option by now. Mathieson's complete lack of radar or rhythm is saving him. The entire attack has been underperforming all season really. I wonder when we'll see Elusive Stag #5 Bevan Small brought in, or is he injured too? Now there is another seriously capable bowler.

 

[Bahnz]

Well I would say that some of us weren't that optimistic... it's also worse remembering that Boult's development has all come as a bit of surprise (Howsie aside of course). I think most of us thought that he'd play international cricket at some point, and some of us may even have thought that he'd make the grade to some extent. But given Southee was always seen as being on a completely different plain to the rest of his U19 colleagues, and given how much difficulty Southee had in his first 4 years of international cricket I don't think that many thought Boult would have the kind of impact on the international scene that he's actually had.

 

[Flem274*]

Pretty sure most backed Boult from the word go. Even at under 19s alongside Southee it was acknowledged he could seriously bowl, though Southee matured as a cricketer faster.

 

[Bahnz]

Mills was pretty harshly dropped after destroying England at home IMO; looked like he was finally finding his feet as a Test bowler and was discarded not long after. I think he too had fitness issues but I thought he had it in him to be a better contributor than late-career Martin for a while.

Yeah Mills was probably harshly dealt with in retrospect, though I do remember him being very poor in the first test against India in 2009. Ironically, his excellence in ODI cricket probably hurt his chances of earning a recall to the test side, as it meant he very rarely had the opportunity to prove his worth in domestic first class cricket.

 

[Bahnz]

Hm, maybe he just fell out of the conversation from 2009-2011 because his back injury made us all roll our eyes and say "here we go again". I don't recall his name being mentioned much before he put good numbers on the board in the 10/11 season, and I seem to recall somebody, I think TH, being...well not dismissive, but hardly effusive with praise either. In his teen years, he certainly didn't encourage ankle deep puddles of droll in the same way that guys like Southee and Kane did.

 

[Kippax]

I wonder when we'll see Elusive Stag #5 Bevan Small brought in, or is he injured too? Now there is another seriously capable bowler.

Impressed the reporter with his pace against Wgtn A at Fitzherbert Park last week, but just middling 2/45-type figures. Only really available for HRV selection iirc. Guys who've had that rib-ectomy have management issues for about six months afterwards.

 

[WindieWeathers]

And the same side that Narine was schooled by.

And how many wickets did Ajmal get on his last visit to BD? a man with vastly more experience than Narine had back then!!.. here's a hint!!..he didn't exactly rip through them!!..

 

[WindieWeathers]

29 is 10 years younger than 39!

Williamson's what, 23?
Southee and Boult 25
Sodhi 21
Watling's 28 and also coming into his prime.

Anderson is a bit of a work in progress at 22 and I'd agree that right now he's not a test match number 6. Still, he certainly hasn't looked out of his depth this series. Honestly, I like McCullum but if he retired now it wouldn't be a huge loss. Ryder is available now and is a far superior batsman.

But we can all say positive things about our respective teams can't we?

Brathwaite= 21 years old and by the age of 18 had four 50s in nine tests

Powell= has three tons already

Darren bravo= need i say more

Narine= a world class talent in the limited overs and potential a top talent in tests

Roach= world class already

Holder= could be another Ambrose

Permaul= all the tests he's played thus far have been on roads in asia and yet he's averaging a respectable 32

We can all say that!!...but until both WI and NZ are beating the top teams even on the odd occasion then such praise is just gonna sound like propaganda really..

 

[marc71178]

And how many wickets did Ajmal get on his last visit to BD? a man with vastly more experience than Narine had back then!!.. here's a hint!!..he didn't exactly rip through them!!..

Oh yes, clearly the 2 are comparable. One taking 9-233 going at 2.57 per over and the other 3-343 going at 4.37 per over.

 

[hendrix]

But Wagner hasn't really been that poor in test cricket...at least not for a while. He's average 33 since becoming a regular against England. Yeah he was poor in Dunedin and during the first innings at Wellington, but it's a bit over the top to suggest dropping him just for that. Southee was poor in the first couple of tests v England, and Boult was poor on the tour of Bangladesh. Yes Wagner hasn't been as good as those two the rest of the time, but a couple of bad performances on their own should not be enough to call an established player's place into question.

To say that Southee was poor in the first couple of England tests would have been to ignore his actual bowling. Everyone, bar no one thought he bowled much better than his figures suggested, and it was actually noted at the time how much better he looked than Anderson in the Wellington test - that he was able to find a hint of movement when even Jimmy couldn't get any. And I would say the exact same thing about Boult in Bangladesh. There was actually the odd poor spell but he was the ONLY bowler in that whole series who ever looked threatening consistently across spells. And that was with absolutely no support.

So unless you're going complete MoneyBall on me here, I can't see what you're saying with all this. There isn't even the faintest comparison between S&B's leaner spells and Wagner's because a) they've never been that lean and they've always looked threatening and b) their purple patches have involved them literally ripping through excellent batting sides on flat decks. Wagner's purple patches? A dodgy 4 wicket haul against England in Dunedin, a dodgy 5 wicket haul against Bangladesh, and one decent spell against WI in which he took what, 2 wickets?

Finally, Chris Martin was a far superior bowler to Wagner. He led a ****ty attack, but his career average is still better than the best of what we've seen from Wagner. Add to that the fact that on rare occasions Chris did actually bowl some world beating spells, and they're really not even comparable.

But we can all say positive things about our respective teams can't we?

We can all say that!!...but until both WI and NZ are beating the top teams even on the odd occasion then such praise is just gonna sound like propaganda really..

Agreed.

 

[jonbrooks]

What do you guys want to see happen in the last test against Windies? I want to see Taylor get another ton. :-)

 

[hendrix]

What do you guys want to see happen in the last test against Windies? I want to see Taylor get another ton. :-)

The most important short term outcome is that Southee and Boult maintain their form because we can't afford for either of them to go missing against India.

 

[straw man]

If I had to take a punt on a debut(ish) third seamer right now then would go:

1: Henry
2: Wheeler
3: Milne
4: Bennett

Milne drops down the list as he seems to lack rhythm at the moment - compared to Henry & Wheeler there's a lot more moving parts in his action that need to be in sync for the ball to come out right, and it doesn't seem to be at the moment with consequences for everything - pace, seam position, swing. Henry becomes the top pick by default, having been on the NZ A tour and had an ok but not fantastic start to FC season. Regarding the 'new ball bowler' comments, yes he swings it but I tend to think both he and Wheeler, with their high arm actions and ability to generate bounce, should be able to do a reasonable job with the old ball too if they can maintain any semblance of accuracy. Wheeler not far behind - I checked their FC stats and was surprised to see that Wheeler actually has more wickets than Henry and Milne, and at a better average than Milne (though significantly worse than Henry's 22.5). Henry being right-handed as opposed to Wheeler left-handed is a minor positive if we're replacing Wagner and we still have Anderson in the side. I continue to be unexcited by Bennett, though I concede if he keeps taking wickets at the current rate it will be hard to ignore him.

Edit: Henry and Wheeler will also not ruin the new ball as they will land it on the seam, unlike Wagner and tbh probably Milne right now too.

Really though if I was a selector, I'd know that these guys all have the potential to be excellent bowlers, but aren't there yet, so the selection would more be based on who is most likely to benefit from the NZ environment, handle pressure, learn quickly, good work ethic etc.

Wouldn't drop Wagner yet though, as frustrating as he is. But it needs to happen sooner or later unless he drastically improves.

 

[Bahnz]

To say that Southee was poor in the first couple of England tests would have been to ignore his actual bowling. Everyone, bar no one thought he bowled much better than his figures suggested, and it was actually noted at the time how much better he looked than Anderson in the Wellington test - that he was able to find a hint of movement when even Jimmy couldn't get any. And I would say the exact same thing about Boult in Bangladesh. There was actually the odd poor spell but he was the ONLY bowler in that whole series who ever looked threatening consistently across spells. And that was with absolutely no support.

So unless you're going complete MoneyBall on me here, I can't see what you're saying with all this. There isn't even the faintest comparison between S&B's leaner spells and Wagner's because a) they've never been that lean and they've always looked threatening and b) their purple patches have involved them literally ripping through excellent batting sides on flat decks. Wagner's purple patches? A dodgy 4 wicket haul against England in Dunedin, a dodgy 5 wicket haul against Bangladesh, and one decent spell against WI in which he took what, 2 wickets?

Finally, Chris Martin was a far superior bowler to Wagner. He led a ****ty attack, but his career average is still better than the best of what we've seen from Wagner. Add to that the fact that on rare occasions Chris did actually bowl some world beating spells, and they're really not even comparable.

What? I, and several others noted that Southee looked very average at Wellington. It was probably due to a combination of coming back from injury and the fatigue from bowling so many overs at Dunedin the week prior, but he was very gentle and he was running in with about as much intent as a fat man coerced by his family into a New Year's pledge to exercise more. It's easily the worst that I've seen him bowl since he was dropped against SA, and at the time I was starting to seriously worry that the SL and India performances were a purple patch. Then he snapped back into a rhythm at Eden Park and has been excellent since.

Anyway, I conceded that Wagner's own efforts in between his off-days have never been in the same ball park as Southee and Boult's and that he isn't really good enough to be a test regular. I still think we're lacking an obvious option to replace him. Hopefully that'll change sooner rather than later, but until it does, or until Wagner completely falls apart (which could still certainly happen) then he should keep his place.

 

[Bahnz]

What do you guys want to see happen in the last test against Windies? I want to see Taylor get another ton. :-)

I want to see Williamson not get out to a backfoot push. I'd also like to see Sodhi get a wicket with his stock legspinner rather than his googly, though if the pitch is green that may be a forlorn hope.

Finally, while I've bagged him in this series, I'd like to Rutherford score some runs. I do think he has some serious talent, and it would be nice for him to show that he can score when taken away from Dunedin.

 

[RxGM]

Edit: Henry and Wheeler will also not ruin the new ball as they will land it on the seam, unlike Wagner and tbh probably Milne right now too.

This is a bit rough on Wagner, Boult in particular was still swinging it conventionally (from what I could tell from the radio commentators) past the 40 over mark.

 

[straw man]

Probably mostly because Boult is awesome though . Plus a not-too-abrasive pitch and outfield surely helped to keep the ball in reasonable condition. Admittedly my 'tv' resolution sometimes makes it difficult to see how straight the seam is unless they show a close-up, but Wagner has always bowled with a fairly wobbly seam at best afaics.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Oh yes, clearly the 2 are comparable. One taking 9-233 going at 2.57 per over and the other 3-343 going at 4.37 per over.

Erm did you miss the part where i said Ajmal didn't rip through them? he got no more than 3 wickets in a single innings!!!..which if you actually THINK for a second you might realise that QUALITY spinners aren't really going to BD and getting a huge amount of wickets these days.

Narine was young and new to test cricket!!...i remember one perticuler spinner starting off poorly aswell and getting dropped for years only to come back and do well!!.. what was his name again? oh yeah i think it was Swann.