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*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

C_C

International Captain
social said:
Mulled it over, and once again you dont disappoint - absolute crap.

When it comes right down to it C_C, youre racist.

Pathetic and intolerable, so I bid you goodnight and sweet dreams on your lonely Fantasy Island
I think when it comes right down to it, you are the racist one.Given the generation i suspect you belong to along with your geographical locale, i am not surprised. You don't like to be reminded of the racial attrocities committed in the world by a certain kind and expect others to completely forgo it, given that is the politically correct nature of today's media. Ofcourse, i would like to know how or why that is even valid, given that racism was rampant in the west even 20-30 years ago and most folks in their 40s/50s are a product of that racist upbringing. I would like to know the logic of presuming pristine intention(s) of umpires such as Hair, given that he is a product of racist Australia, not the multicultural Australia that we know of today. And if the older folks the world over are anything to go by, older people tend to petrify rather than evolve ( hence the classic generation gap between every single generation). Give me a reason why i should automatically assume pristine virtue from Hair, instead of looking at the era of his upbringing, its overwhelming trend and keeping a skeptical eye. I am sure you don't keep a skeptical eye on a former German solder from WWII, even though everyone knows that while Nazi philosophy was rampant in pre WWII Germany and during it, not every single soldier was a Nazi. Right ?

Funny enough, you seem to have little clue to differentiate between racism and cultural imperialism.

PS: You mulled over squat. OZ admits that their relationship with the umpires is one of the reasons for their dominance - that they keep a 'good' relationship with the umpires tend to influence decisions in their favour. Obviously the logical conclusion would be that OZ supports the continuation of things today, as it is in their best interest. Seems as simple as 1-2-3 to me. They do cultivate a relationship with the judiciary when that is pushing the ethical boundaries of the game. The best systems are those where the judiciary is absolutely impervious and removed from the contestants, not where they openly admit favourable interactions.


And then you have the gamut of cultural imperialism. But lets not go there. I am not interested in pushing your buttons really. Your existance is irrelevant to me for most part.

PPS: Did i ruffle some colonial feathers by pointing out(factually backed up i might add) that the majority of cricketing populace are subcontinental and thus follow subcontinental trends ? Me apologies !
 
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honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
parttimer said:
How is not Warne not that great elsewhere i remember him taking some great catches in the gully and point so theres no doubt he's has the better pair of hands. I'm afraid you don't become first slip without them. He is good along the boundary too with a very strong arm and decently quick across the outfield, on the rare occasion when asked to field there. Show me some clips of Murali fielding like Symonds (to make up for Warne's superior hands) and i'll agree with you.
Watch the Asia Cup and the Independence Cups of all three of the subcontinental nations. Watch the ODIs of Sri Lanka against RSA and England and some of these other sides. And trust me, I saw Warney drop the biggest sitter of them all (and NOT the one this Ashes). It is true that he has a good pair of hands generally, but he is NOWHERE near being a GREAT catcher. I have seen drop too many to bill him that. And anyone who puts Warney at point must be out of their minds. And he was never that quick across the turf. I have seen INDIANS take him on from the outfield and do well.
 

C_C

International Captain
honestbharani said:
Watch the Asia Cup and the Independence Cups of all three of the subcontinental nations. Watch the ODIs of Sri Lanka against RSA and England and some of these other sides. And trust me, I saw Warney drop the biggest sitter of them all (and NOT the one this Ashes). It is true that he has a good pair of hands generally, but he is NOWHERE near being a GREAT catcher. I have seen drop too many to bill him that. And anyone who puts Warney at point must be out of their minds. And he was never that quick across the turf. I have seen INDIANS take him on from the outfield and do well.

I agree with this generally. Warne is an above average catcher, not an exponent of it like Healey/Mark Waugh/Mark Taylor/etc. were. I wouldn't include Warne in the list of great slip fielders or catchers simply because there are far far better catchers littered the world over-historically and today. However, Murali, in his 20s was one hell of a fielder and one of the top 10 fielders of his time. The only ones i would categorically rate better were Rhodes, Gibbs and Bevan.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
social said:
And possibly costing a team a test match, which is the sole reason the game is played.

Whilst that is an extreme example, and despite the fact that the new laws are definitely an improvement, the facts are that:

a. they are open to exploitation by the players concerned; and

b. the umpires have definitely "passed the buck" and the game is poorer and less "fair" as a result.
I agree with part "a" of your assessment, Social, but I think the game is fairer now than what it was because of this new law. I mean, if the old laws were in place, we would be banning Murali for a 10 degree flex and allow McGrath to get away even though he actually flexes more. And I really don't know how teams can exploit it. The only way is the example of a bowler playing a match winning part in a match and then found out to be chucking. But really, with the old laws, you had the risk of a guy being called when he is actually bowling within the laws. That is EVEN WORSE. I mean, the general law around the world would be that it is okay to let away 100 criminals than to punish one innocent guy. The basic principle is that the INNOCENT should not be punished and the same applies here. You are banned IF AND ONLY IF you are conclusively proved to be contravening the laws, not otherwise. I think it is fair enough. How would you feel if McGrath was banned from bowling in a test in a pitch like the Lords one last year because an umpire simply SUSPECTS that he is flexing it more than 15 degrees. Trust me, if you give the umpires the power to call people simply based on suspicion, you are basically opening a BIG pandora's box.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
social said:
Decision making in the hands of the umpire is part of the game's attraction.

Fortunately, history has proven time and again, that mistakes even themselves out.

Taken to the extreme, without umpires, we end up with no appealing and a bunch of drones pushing a button on a hand-set for a decision's adjudication.
Most decisions in cricket are made by the umpire simply because he WAS the best one and WAS in the best position to make those decisions. Examples being the LBW and the caught behind decisions. Unfortunately, it has been PROVEN that umpires are neither the best people and nor do they have the best position to judge the legality of a bowling action. Therefore, that decision has been passed over to the "real" experts of the said issue... biomechanists. I don't see why you have such a big problem with this.


And regarding technological advancements, it is obvious that technology is developing exponentially. And if stuff like snickos and the super slo mo cameras are going to HELP the umpires make the correct decision, then they should be given that aid. We are not taking anything away from the umpires here, we are simply giving them more resources to help them make the right decision. I have my reservations about using Hawk Eye for LBW, but I don't mind an umpire having a quick check whether the ball pitched in line or not.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
C_C said:
A player can be cost his career with far more alarming regularity, if incompetent people were made in charge of the decisions
Indeed, look at poor Damien Martyn and Jason Gillespie being captained by Ponting...
 

C_C

International Captain
marc71178 said:
Indeed, look at poor Damien Martyn and Jason Gillespie being captained by Ponting...
LOL. The competence of a captain can play an instrumental role in the careers of several players and it is the objective ( or atleast, should be the objective) of the said nation to select the best man for the job. However, the competence( rather, the lack of it) of the umpires impact the whole game- the full spectrum of it in international levels. It is also the job of the said body(ICC) to ensure that the best solution for the job is implimented.
Umpires are not central part of the attraction cricket holds- the performance of its players is.
Umpires merely exist to facilitate a neutral and best possible decision-making to uphold the rules of cricket in the field of play.

Chucking, as it stands today, cannot be guaged reliably in the field of play on a real-time basis. As such, the descision has been removed from the hands of the umpires and justifiably so. Same with run-outs. In many aspects, this whole Murali saga is similar to the Hank Aaron saga in baseball. Aaron was the first black player of superstar capability to make it in the unified MLB after Jackie Robinson and there was intense media hatred, along with race-based hatred directed towards Aaron, especially in the latter years of his career. The major reason being (apart from the obvious racial superiority tilt in the common US culture at that time) Aaron was threatening the home run record of Babe Ruth, the American hero of baseball ( the Bradman figure if you must draw a comparison).
The idea that a black man would usurp the record of glorious Babe was unpalatable for most 'white is right' Americans.

In this case, there is fair dollop of racism involved but the prime issue, IMO, is that someone with an unconventional action, ( though legal in every sense of the world- today and when judged retroactively with the whole field in perspective) such as Murali, would most likely end up holding the record for most wickets over traditional practitioners of the art, such as Warne. The link i find is that the unconventional trumps the conventional. Yet another reason why Murali's accomplishments are fiercely debated with respect to Warney's while such debates are almost never entertained in respect of Hadlee and Lillee/Marshall/Imran for example, despite the fact that Hadlee is to Murali and Lillee/Marshall/Imran are to Warne in much the same way.

Most people see it as Murali being 'lucky to get away with it' when in reality, he is lucky that his captain stood by him and exposed the massive misconceptions and idiotic notions regarding chucking that was the fabric of the old school cricketing culture. He should be applauded for his resolute stance on this and not let the largely fabricated ( and persistent, despite facts proving otherwise) notions of bowling legality being bandied around, ironically enough mostly from the home front of his arch-rival Warney, destroy his career.
The fact that he was questioned early on due to his unsual action is not what draws my ire- i see that as justified and reasonable in that timeframe with the knowledge they had.
The fact that his action and its legality is STILL questioned, despite being categorically proven that his action is no worse than most other bowlers and some bowlers with pristine actions are just as much of a chucker as Murali ( for eg. McGrath) still doesnt deter from the largely clueless and media-fed bashers of Murali is what irks me the most.

We have ridiculous assumptions and notions being bandied around to determine who is a chucker and who isnt, by people hopelessly inadequate in the relevant fields.
We've heard laughable notions of slow-mo replay from TVs ( nevermind that slow-mo replay from TVs are hopelessly inadequate in representing a 3-d motion, owing to its 2-d nature, from a single-perspective camera angle).
We've heard ridiculous notion on how Murali's armspeed is slower than McGrath's or other bowlers and twistings of the word arm-speed to suit their personal agenda, when it has been made amply clear time and time again (atleast by me) that armspeed is in reference to the time it takes the arm to complete the final delivery swing ( ie, from the point the arm goes into the final delivery swing to when the ball is released).
We've also heard how the ICC rules have been drawn up to accomodate Murali, his flexion being in the 14.2(or whatever decimal point) range and the 15 degree rule exists solely to humour Murali, as 99% of bowlers would fall in 14 degrees or below.
Nevermind the fact that the degree of accuracy for the study was 1 degrees, so any decimal point after 14 would be irrelevant and immeasurable by instruments and can only be drawn upon by mathematical average ( which is always trimmed accordingly to the error range/accuracy of the equipments. Hence significant figures are so frickin important in any scientific measurement).
Nevermind the fact that you cannot quote the final answer to be 15.32424234233241 if the measuring device is accurate to only 2 decimal points ( in this case, the measuring device is accurate to 1 degree, so any decimal point value is discarded, even if it is the mathematical solution). Nevermind that in almost all walks of life, the tolerance levels specified always take into account the highest possible error range along with the lowest possible one. Nevermind that it is not just convention, but logical to take the upperbound error limit ( which is 15 degrees for a measurement of 14 degrees +/- 1 degree error reading) for the highest set tolerance level where suitable and lowerbound error limit ( such as crafting industrial washers or rings- the outer radius is always set with the highest bound error limit and the inner radius always set with the lowest bound error limit).

People tend to have too much of a puffed up ego, letting them conclude that they know it best, when all one has to do is defer judgement to the experts in the appropriate fields. I consider some attempts of utterly clueless people ( in matters of experimental methodology or scientific analysis- required knowledge to accurately guage the flexion of the elbow) to be as laughable and ludicrous as me instructing Picasso how to draw or Mozart on how to compose a piano piece ( i am clueless when it comes to painting or the piano). Ofcourse, such a ludicrous example, given to illustrate the stupidity of some is taken literally verbatim to further support their non-existant case.
Pathetic state of affairs really.
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
And i would request likes of you and social not to pollute the thread about flexions and its judgement/guaging without having an iota of knowledge on what physics principles are involved and what the correct methodology is. Its a bit like me telling Picasso how to paint. Which would be preposterous.
I have a request as well...you're a man of science...stick to it. Don't demean the sport I love by conversing over it. PLEASE don't...I'll stop with science...you stop with cricket. Fair deal wouldn't you say?
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Top_Cat said:
You sound distinctly anti-intellectual here. It's like you calling C_C a 'scientist' should be something of an insult when by definition, science is neutral so calling someone a scientist can neither be insulting nor complementary without some form of bias attached to the insinuation.

As for whether Warne is a better fielder than Murali, it's too hard to say because Warne has almost never been a boundary-rider. He's almost always been in the slips or close-in but mostly slips. I do distinctly remember that Murali was an absolute gun in the field in his early days both with the mitts and along the ground. Now, he's a bit of a liability.
No actually I called him a scientist because he is one. The tone in which I typed was to show that "I do not talk about things I do not know about". So for scientific matters, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. However, thinking it over again...being a scientist well...that's all well and good...once one recoils to his/her vocation this often... 8-)

As for Warne BEING a better fielder and being compared to Gibbs... 8-)

To say he WAS...is one thing ....to say he IS, is another. Go back and read C_C's post.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Top_Cat said:
I'm really interested to know why you have such a doomsday attitude in this instance when just about every other technological enhancement, in the face of similar attitudes to the above, has been looked upon with hindsight as more of an enhancement than anything else. For example, I remember the uproar when the 3rd umpire came into existance; everyone said it would interrupt the 'flow of the game' (whatever that means) but instead, it builds tension and excites people and now most can't even remember the game without it. Not withstanding that cricket's popularity continues to increase, not decrease. So why the overwhelming negativity?
Keyword: Enhancement.

Who/What/Where/How/Which enhancement?
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
Which is why i qualified my statement with 'when they were at their peak'. You have presented ZERO evidence to suggest that Warne is a better fielder than Murali and the only thing you have to go by is catching prowess, which is a minor part of the equation.
C_C said:
Murali is a far better fielder than Warne. Warne is a better catcher.
Its a bit like comparing Mark Waugh with Azharuddin or Herschelle Gibbs.
I don't see where you mentioned "at their peaks" :blink:
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
luckyeddie said:
C_C, sometimes you make valid points.

This, however, is not one of those occasions. This is one of those occasions when what you are stating is so crazy, it reduces your overall credibility.

Your assertion that bowlers were reported (actually they weren't - they were called for throwing) because of semantics and cultural notions is quite pathetic - one of the more ridiculous statements I have ever read.
Another Whopper ey Eddie? Bag us some chips with that :D . Diet Coke :happy:
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
Whether it is 20/20, ODI cricket, 3-day cricket, Test cricket or backyard street cricket, the spectators are interested in the performers and their performance, not the umpires. The umpires are a tool in cricket, not the central attraction. As such, i see no reason for any spectator drop related to entertainment solely- the only drop i can see is due to an arrogant and narrowminded culturalistic perspective that wants things to remain the same, even when there is a superior solution.

And if Aussie Rugby League did away with 3rd umpire decisions, it is to the detriment of the sport. I cant see anything being taken seriously if the judiciary is not of the highest callibre available and if thats what the public wants, then fine. But it would reduce the sport to mere entertainment - perhaps its time cricket took a few lessons from WWF wrestling ?
BTW- what the cricket public wants, again, is not what you speak of, since most of the cricket watchers are subcontinental and there is a distinct cultural gap between the west and the subcontinent in regards to umpires and cricketing tradition.
Ofcourse, that is not meant to be taken as a blanket statement but a perspective on how the majority of the respective field sways in this.
And the majority decision lies with the subcontinent when it comes to cricket so if any changes are to be made on purely cultural terms, it would be prudent to keep track of the cultural leanings of the subcontinent, not the west in regards to cricket.
Or else there could be a divide in cricket much along the lines of boxing, that may very well see the subcontinent cut ties with the west when it comes to cricket. And if it comes to that, the loser would be the west, not the subcontinent.


PS: I am not concerned about increasing emotional response in sports. If anything, i would prefer if all this chest-beating and arguments along nationalistic lines were toned down. I watch cricket to see who whacks the ball the best or who disturbs the three sticks the best. Emotions like everything, need to be kept in moderation.

I think the argument being made about the fallability of Umpires enriching the game is a valid one. Whether you dislike antics that you have ACTUALLY catelogued as cultural, the fact is it makes the game even sweeter. One bad decision and it gives a struggling team some hope...and if they happen to climb the mountain and win...it makes the game even more memorable...whether you're from the winning side or losing side. Decisions will come and go for everyone.

Yourself reason individual skills and bowling variation as your preference of entertainment...but really ask yourself...what is the difference between a century against Bangladesh and a century against England in the Ashes final test? Really...umpiring decisions can carry the same emotive response. I agree that umpires are not the attraction...yet one step turns into two and two into three.

Here is a catch-phrase:

C_C said:
But it would reduce the sport to mere entertainment
Really? You don't say? 8-)
 

C_C

International Captain
KaZoH0lic said:
I have a request as well...you're a man of science...stick to it. Don't demean the sport I love by conversing over it. PLEASE don't...I'll stop with science...you stop with cricket. Fair deal wouldn't you say?

Fair enough. You feel free to define the question of chucking however you wish but whether it is possible to duplicate such rules into motion is a matter of science, thus NOT your domain.
I dont care what you set the flexion limits at, the ONLY way to verify it consistently and accurately is through science, not arbitary notions of cricketing culture.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
I think when it comes right down to it, you are the racist one.Given the generation i suspect you belong to along with your geographical locale, i am not surprised. You don't like to be reminded of the racial attrocities committed in the world by a certain kind and expect others to completely forgo it, given that is the politically correct nature of today's media. Ofcourse, i would like to know how or why that is even valid, given that racism was rampant in the west even 20-30 years ago and most folks in their 40s/50s are a product of that racist upbringing. I would like to know the logic of presuming pristine intention(s) of umpires such as Hair, given that he is a product of racist Australia, not the multicultural Australia that we know of today. And if the older folks the world over are anything to go by, older people tend to petrify rather than evolve ( hence the classic generation gap between every single generation). Give me a reason why i should automatically assume pristine virtue from Hair, instead of looking at the era of his upbringing, its overwhelming trend and keeping a skeptical eye. I am sure you don't keep a skeptical eye on a former German solder from WWII, even though everyone knows that while Nazi philosophy was rampant in pre WWII Germany and during it, not every single soldier was a Nazi. Right ?.....
Whew...amazing...you're really ignorant...I'm surprised really that I underestimated you.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
honestbharani said:
I agree with part "a" of your assessment, Social, but I think the game is fairer now than what it was because of this new law. I mean, if the old laws were in place, we would be banning Murali for a 10 degree flex and allow McGrath to get away even though he actually flexes more. And I really don't know how teams can exploit it. The only way is the example of a bowler playing a match winning part in a match and then found out to be chucking. But really, with the old laws, you had the risk of a guy being called when he is actually bowling within the laws. That is EVEN WORSE. I mean, the general law around the world would be that it is okay to let away 100 criminals than to punish one innocent guy. The basic principle is that the INNOCENT should not be punished and the same applies here. You are banned IF AND ONLY IF you are conclusively proved to be contravening the laws, not otherwise. I think it is fair enough. How would you feel if McGrath was banned from bowling in a test in a pitch like the Lords one last year because an umpire simply SUSPECTS that he is flexing it more than 15 degrees. Trust me, if you give the umpires the power to call people simply based on suspicion, you are basically opening a BIG pandora's box.

How can one conclusively argue against a law created to broaden restrictions for a player? When legislation is passed and that is what you deem gospel...how on earth can one challenge any notion you may hold? Justice is usually blind, in this case it knew what it was doing.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
honestbharani said:
Most decisions in cricket are made by the umpire simply because he WAS the best one and WAS in the best position to make those decisions. Examples being the LBW and the caught behind decisions. Unfortunately, it has been PROVEN that umpires are neither the best people and nor do they have the best position to judge the legality of a bowling action. Therefore, that decision has been passed over to the "real" experts of the said issue... biomechanists. I don't see why you have such a big problem with this..
I think almost every facet in life will have a judicial entity. Umpire's are employed for their knowledge of the game, written/unwritten. Some laws regard their own interpretation. However, because they have studied the laws and because they're experienced, they're more than qualified to adjudicate and give their own interpretation based on laws.

Chucking is an issue which has been plucked out of understanding and defined broadly (let's agree and saying they're taking the right steps), but it hasn't helped any. Once upon a time, chatting about the legitmacy of a bowler's action was rare...presently it's a daily fable.
 

C_C

International Captain
KaZoH0lic said:
Keyword: Enhancement.

Who/What/Where/How/Which enhancement?

Enhancements such as replacing blue-collar workers with robotic arms in assembly lines.
Enhancements such as heart-lung machines.
And enhancements such as a scientist determining if and how the elbow is moving, not an umpire with f-all knowledge in the field.
 

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