*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[Tom Halsey]

b. Despite (a), a no. of batsman have produced remarkable series against Murali at home whilst no-one has treated Warne in remotely similar fashion in Aus.

Apologies, I didn't search the post but knew it was something along these lines.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Well for one, he was NOT injured against IND severely in the test series. I don't care what the universally accepted fad is- but you dont bowl 50 overs per match carrying a serious injury for 3 matches.

You do if you're asked to. Another thign is no-one knew how serious it was until he got home.

 

[Tom Halsey]

he's been smashed around less than Warney.

I beg to differ.

Going by your logistics (40+ average series = being whacked), Murali has had 7 series where he's averaged 40+. He was probably fast-tracked into International cricket too early, so we'll excuse the first one. That's now 6. That's the same as Warnie.

 

[C_C]

You do if you're asked to. Another thign is no-one knew how serious it was until he got home.

if you bowl 50 overs per match,your injury is nothing more than a minor inconvinience. You can bowl a few overs with a major injury- not 3 whole tests and over 150 overs. That is pure BS. Its about as much BS as a marathon runner competing in the olympics with a broken foot and running all 26(?) miles with a broken foot.
It is pure media-generated BS and since he got injured in the ODIs following the tests, the OZ media nicely tried to cover up his test implosion by the same excuse.

 

[Deja moo]

We have never disputed this, and this is why it beggars belief as to why he keeps saying it.

All we have said is that Murali takes way more minnow wickets than Warne, which can in a way be deemed as tailend wickets as they aren't very good.

Why do you keep missing the picture? What is relevant here is that when purely non-minnow wickets are considered, its clear Warne picks up more tailenders as a proportion of his wickets than Murali. Your pedantry (is that a word?) is amazing.

 

[Tom Halsey]

if you bowl 50 overs per match,your injury is nothing more than a minor inconvinience. You can bowl a few overs with a major injury- not 3 whole tests and over 150 overs. That is pure BS. Its about as much BS as a marathon runner competing in the olympics with a broken foot and running all 26(?) miles with a broken foot.
It is pure media-generated BS and since he got injured in the ODIs following the tests, the OZ media nicely tried to cover up his test implosion by the same excuse.

So you use painkillers (which don't make you perform as if you're injury free, but at least mask the pain). Plenty of bowlers have done this and suffered the consequences, not just Warnie (and the decision is quite often made by the management). Flintoff got by on painkillers for years, and it's partly why his bowling average now is not what it should be.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Why do you keep missing the picture? What is relevant here is that when purely non-minnow wickets are considered, its clear Warne picks up more tailenders as a proportion of his wickets than Murali. Your pedantry (is that a word?) is amazing.

I have never disputed that. Read again. I have never disputed that.

 

[C_C]

Warne, on the other hand, has remarkably similar away and home records, indicating that he is more adaptable.

Not really. Adaptability = ability to modify one's abilities ( in this case, bowling) based on circumstances. Ie, how well you adapt to unknown circumstances - overseas bowling is a good indicator of adaptability and Murali is just as adaptable as Warne ( his overseas bowling ave. is marginally worse than Warney's).

b. Despite (a), a no. of batsman have produced remarkable series against Murali at home whilst no-one has treated Warne in remotely similar fashion in Aus.

Quite a few batsmen have produced superb series against lone-horsemen attacks, such as Imran-led Pakistan ( late 70s to mid/late 80s, before the emergence of Akram), Hadlee led NZ, Murali led SL, etc. It is simply because you dont face pressure all the time and sometimes you get to settle in before the main bowler comes back.
Against OZ, batsmen have no such luxury, largely due to the presence of McGrath.
But the few times Warney has had to carry the OZ attack in the absence of McGrath, much like Murali carries SL, Warney has been royally whacked- most notably in IND 1997. And overall he averages 27+ while bowling without McGrath, indiciating that he is less capable than Murali without McGrath making the initial strikes and Warney comming in to mop up.

 

[Dasa]

Your pedantry (is that a word?) is amazing.

Indeed it is a word.

 

[C_C]

So you use painkillers (which don't make you perform as if you're injury free, but at least mask the pain). Plenty of bowlers have done this and suffered the consequences, not just Warnie (and the decision is quite often made by the management). Flintoff got by on painkillers for years, and it's partly why his bowling average now is not what it should be.

Painkillers cannot mask a major injury. Nomatter how much painkiller you take, you arnt gonna be able to run with a broken foot.
Taking painkillers and bowling is done in case of minor niggles or one-time scenarios in crucial matchups. Not for any other series for the whole series and then play meaningless ODIs.
That is utter BS.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Painkillers cannot mask a major injury. Nomatter how much painkiller you take, you arnt gonna be able to run with a broken foot.

No, it doesn't work with running with a broken foot, but it works with other things. Flintoff used painkillers to bowl with a pretty major injury for ages (though they do get less effective over time). Warnie only used it for one series.

 

[C_C]

I beg to differ.

Going by your logistics (40+ average series = being whacked), Murali has had 7 series where he's averaged 40+. He was probably fast-tracked into International cricket too early, so we'll excuse the first one. That's now 6. That's the same as Warnie.

Check your figures or check the thread- i posted the # of series both Warney and Murali have played, minus minnows. I specified the # of series Warney averaged over 50,40,30,20 and under 20 and likewise for Murali. Warney has higher % of series averaging over 50,40 and 20s. Since averaging 40 or 50 with the ball = getting whacked, Warney has been whacked more often than Murali. Its just that simple.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Check your figures or check the thread- i posted the # of series both Warney and Murali have played, minus minnows. I specified the # of series Warney averaged over 50,40,30,20 and under 20 and likewise for Murali. Warney has higher % of series averaging over 50,40 and 20s. Since averaging 40 or 50 with the ball = getting whacked, Warney has been whacked more often than Murali. Its just that simple.

Okay, check this: http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Players/PlayerSeries.asp?PlayerID=1234 - it clearly shows Murali with 7 series 40+. As I said, he was probably fast-tracked into International cricket, so we'll excuse him that first one.

 

[C_C]

No, it doesn't work with running with a broken foot, but it works with other things. Flintoff used painkillers to bowl with a pretty major injury for ages (though they do get less effective over time). Warnie only used it for one series.

Dude. Warney's shoulder collapsed midway through the ODI series in 1997.
If his shoulder had collapsed in the test series, i dont think he would've been able to turn his arm over, painkiller or no painkiller.
If my rotor-cuff is severed ( for example), nomatter how much painkiller i take, i aint gonna be able to rotate my arm. If my finger is smashed, nomatter howmuch painkillers i take, i am not gonna be able to draw an arrow.
It is utter BS that Warney was majorly injured in 1997 test series- no mention of it before the series or during the series, infact the OZ hyped him to destroy IND in IND but he got annihilated and his injury in the ODI series was the media boon for OZ media- they just extended it to cover his test series, which is BS.

 

[C_C]

Okay, check this: http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Players/PlayerSeries.asp?PlayerID=1234 - it clearly shows Murali with 7 series 40+. As I said, he was probably fast-tracked into International cricket, so we'll excuse him that first one.

Argh.
I will dig up my post for you.

 

[Deja moo]

I have never disputed that. Read again. I have never disputed that.

Then please explain the repetition. I havent claimed that Muralis wickets against minnows are quality. When I accept that and move on to their performances against solely non-minnows, the talk about the minnows still continues. Why is that ?

 

[Tom Halsey]

Argh.
I will dig up my post for you.

Those figures (from a well known stats site, which is highly unlikely to be wrong) clearly show it. I think I'll trust it, thanks.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Then please explain the repetition. I havent claimed that Muralis wickets against minnows are quality. When I accept that and move on to their performances against solely non-minnows, the talk about the minnows still continues. Why is that ?

Because a 6% difference of tailend wickets to me means nothing compared to a 20% difference in minnow wickets.

 

[C_C]

Those figures (from a well known stats site, which is highly unlikely to be wrong) clearly show it. I think I'll trust it, thanks.

I take all my stats from crickinfo.

And this is what i posted earlier- you can feel free to verify:

Warney has played 41 series in total excluding the current ongoing series and excluding minnows.
Of them, he's averaged above 50 in 7 series ( 17.07%), above 40 in 8 series ( 19.51%), above 30 in 12 series ( 29.26 % ) , 20-30 in 20 series( 48.78%)and under 20 in 9 series ( 21.42%).

Murali has played 38 series in total excluding the minnows( no current ongoing series for Murali).
Of them, he's averaged above 50 in 4 series ( 10.52%), above 40 in 6 series ( 15.78 %), above 30 in 15 series ( 39.47 %), 20-30 in 12 series ( 31.57%) and under 20 in 11 series ( 28.94%).

 

[Tom Halsey]

Dude. Warney's shoulder collapsed midway through the ODI series in 1997.
If his shoulder had collapsed in the test series, i dont think he would've been able to turn his arm over, painkiller or no painkiller.

You can for a limited period of time. 3 Test matches (plus a handful of ODIs) is a limited period of time.