• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

C_C

International Captain
2) Actually, Australia's bowling attack in the early 90s wasn't great and not hugely better than Sri Lanka's now. This is exemplified by the fact that Warne's economy rate going into the 1994/5 Ashes was 2.2, and his average was just over 23 (came down to 22 temporarily in The Ashes series), which shows he was often blocked out much like Murali is. Yet at his peak he still took wickets. And not on dustbowls.
Even in the early-mid 90s the OZ attack was superior to the current SL attack. But it wasnt massively superior like it has been over the past decade or so - and yes, Warney took a lotta wickets then, being the major bowler.But he didnt, either at Murali's stunning average, or wicket/match ratio or strike rate.
 

C_C

International Captain
social said:
You are impossible.

If you read the reports, which I have (and I can only assume that the ICC and its independent experts have done likewise, given their findings) you'll find that this testing had too great a margin of error to be definitive or accurate. As such, lab-testing is a pre-requisite to any decision.

They were used for data collection purposes only.

They bear little significance on the way that the "testers" view any bowler.

I would hope, given that you are a self-proclaimed expert in error analysis, that you do not spend too much time analysing your own posts as the holiday season is too short.

Over and out.
The lab test is a pre-requisite to determine the level of flexion to the most accurate degree. However, the ICC champion's trophy testing, along with analysis of bowlers from yesteryears clearly establishes that every single bowler barring Sarwan flexes his elbow and thus, chucks. McGrath's ICC champion's trophy testing shows him to flex around 12 degrees, with a margin of error of around 2 degrees. That means his flexion level ( from what is determined so far), is between 10 and 14 degrees.
It is not lower than 10 and not higher than 14, no matter how more precise you wanna get.
If it is around 10, he is around the average flexion levels for a pacer and if it is around 14,he flexes more than most pacers and spinners - and his arm speed is slower than Murali's. ( Murali's arm completes its revolution faster than McGrath's does - much like Wasim's arm action was faster than most, ie, his arm completed the revolution faster than most players - ones who've played against Wasim or seen him bowl agree to this without the requirement of science to back it up anyways)
Since elbow flexion is primarily dependent on arm speed ( one of the few major factors), if anything, McGrath is a bigger chucker than Murali is.
That is the logical conclusion.
Simple as that.


PS: I am not a self-proclaimed expert in error analysis - any engineering/pure science student is after the first few years - and i got my degree to back up my talk, not to mention, my current line of work requires a complete mastery of error analysis. So in short, stop arguing with me when it comes to error analysis, unless you are qualified to do so. You may've played FC cricket and you certainly know who plays cover drives better or who turns the ball more, atleast amongst the players you've played with. You may know more than me about how to bowl leg cutters or reverse swingers. But this is my area of expertise, so kindly, shut up instead of arguing about something you do not know of.
 

ohtani's jacket

State Vice-Captain
Tom Halsey said:
1) As you so often point out, Murali has less competition for wickets. Therefore in long innings, with lots more bowling directed at Murali, he's bound to take more wickets.
That doesn't make it any easier for Murali to take wickets. Look at all the marathon spells he's had to bowl, only to get a respectable tally from bowling the tail.

A better indicator of their wicket taking ability is strike rate -- Murali's 56.8 to Warne's 57.4, and if anyone wants to quibble over .6 of a ball, well...
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Warne vs Murali on cricketing ability = too close to call in my opinion.

However, Warnie pulls more chicks.

Warnie wins on points.
 

andyc

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
a massive zebra said:
There is no point in discussing this as Murali has never played in 4 or 5 Test series so no one can say for sure how he would perform. The chances are, however, that as he performs Warne in almost every other category, that he would come out on top.



Answered above.



Substantially better than Warne's as most of these series have consisted of 2 Tests so the impact on his average has been minimal. It's actually 83 wickets at 27.92 compared to Warne's average of nearly 32.



What a hypocrite. In this case I was simply using the statistics that you had claimed were in Warne's favour, and the so called 'notepad file' is one of the most thorough statistical analyses you can come across, incorpirating all matches that the two bowlers have played in and a looking at things from a wide variety of angles.



I might not know anything personal about you but 7000 posts is more than enough from which to develop a picture about somene and I have read nearly all your posts on other threads - they have only reinforced my views. For example, your choice of Australians for current and all time World XIs over many players from other countries who have performed better, your choice of Lillee over many other fast bowlers despite statistical proof to the contrary. I could go on and on but that wouldn't solve anything. If you actually read my well known analysis of this subject you will see that it goes well beyond who has the better average.

Murali has a better average, strike rate, economy rate, and takes more wickets per match than Warne; despite the fact that Warne has not had to play against the world's best team.

Murali is far more consistent. Warne has been known to be hammered occasionally and although Murali has previously been nullified to a degree, he is very rarely hit around the park.

Warne
45 7 150 1 3.33 3rd Test v Ind in Aus 1991/92 at Sydney
30 7 122 1 4.07 1st Test v Ind in Ind 1997/98 at Chennai
42 4 147 0 3.50 2nd Test v Ind in Ind 1997/98 at Kolkata
34 3 152 1 4.47 2nd Test v Ind in Ind 2000/01 at Kolkata
42 7 140 2 3.33 3rd Test v Ind in Ind 2000/01 at Chennai
30 6 108 2 3.60 3rd Test v SA in SA 2001/02 at Durban
38 7 129 3 3.39 2nd Test v SL in Aus 2004 at Cairns
32 4 115 2 3.59 1st Test v Ind in Ind 2004/2005 at Nagpur

Murali
36 6 123 1 3.42 1 L 1st Test v Pak in SL 1994 at Colombo
54 3 224 2 4.15 2 L 1st Test v Aus in Aus 1995/96 at Perth
33 6 136 0 4.12 1 L 1st Test v NZ in NZ 1996/97 at Dunedin


Warne is part of a stronger bowling attack. If Warne was of equal ability to Murali he would take less wickets per match than Murali (because there are four good bowlers competing for wickets), but would have a lower average and strike rate (because greater pressure is put on the batsman by bowlers at the other end). For an example of this take two great fast bowlers, Marshall and Hadlee - Marshall having a better average because the high class West Indian bowlers put greater pressure on the batsmen, but Hadlee took more wickets per match because there was less competition for them. Same with Lindwall vs Bedser, Ambrose vs Akram, Laker vs Tayfield, and many, many others. Murali takes more wickets per match and has a lower average and strike rate.

A high proportion of Warne's test wickets are numbers 10 and 11 in the batting order; Murali does well against all batting positions. When they were both on 527 wickets, Warne had taken the wickets of batsmen 8-11 190 times, Murali had done it 162 times - a significant difference of 17%. And we all know it is far more valuable to be able to defeat players of high ability, because they can really make you suffer. Tailenders will usually get out sooner rather than later anyway, and very rarely turn a match on its head (with the bat anyway). What’s the point in Warne taking the wickets of Nehra or Walsh game after game, if he cannot trouble Tendulkar or Lara?


8) Murali on top form is more devastating than Warne on top form.

Best innings:

9/51 M Muralitharan v Zimbabwe at Kandy, 2nd Test, 2001/02 [1583]
9/65 M Muralitharan v England at The Oval, Only Test, 1998 [1423]
8/71 SK Warne v England at Brisbane, 1st Test, 1994/95
8/87 M Muralitharan v India at Colombo (SSC), 3rd Test, 2001 [1559]


10) One reason why Warne is rated so highly is Gatting’s reaction to the so called “ball of the century.” The shock that that ball sent through the cricketing world was immense because it was thought no one else could bowl that delivery. Actually, Warne was not the only one to bowl such a delivery in recent years, Abdul Qadir had bowled the same delivery a few years earlier, it just wasn’t highlighted at the time because it wasn't on such a big stage. Murali bowled similar balls which were every bit as good to both Sadgapan Ramesh and Mark Butcher a few years ago.


Also, this is not a notepad file that I have saved on disk as you have claimed so many times, but infact a post I originally made on this board about a year ago. When it is required I just use the search button to find it and then copy and paste.



Personal insults are a sure sign of someone who knows he is losing an argument but is too stubborn to change his view even after he has run out of ideas to support his opinion.
Longest post ever?


And yes, I just had to quote it :D
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
C_C said:
Even in the early-mid 90s the OZ attack was superior to the current SL attack. But it wasnt massively superior like it has been over the past decade or so - and yes, Warney took a lotta wickets then, being the major bowler.But he didnt, either at Murali's stunning average, or wicket/match ratio or strike rate.
Can't argue with the rest of it, but at one point his average was 22 (same as Murali's), and no he didn't have the same strike rate but his economy rate was lower than Murali's (which seems to show Warne was blocked out to an even bigger extent than Murali is now). And he didn't play all his cricket on dustbowls (and I don't care what anyone says but a spinner would rather play on a dustbowl than anywhere else).
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
ohtani's jacket said:
That doesn't make it any easier for Murali to take wickets. Look at all the marathon spells he's had to bowl, only to get a respectable tally from bowling the tail.

A better indicator of their wicket taking ability is strike rate -- Murali's 56.8 to Warne's 57.4, and if anyone wants to quibble over .6 of a ball, well...
If you read the rest of the point, I wasn't even talking about his wicket taking ability. I was talking about some stats AMZ quoted which were a bit selective (to do with Warne being smashed more often).
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Tom Halsey said:
No he doesn't. We had a look at Stats Guru recently and it's 4 all.
I meant overall. But even by your argument, they are equal and one is still not better than the other, atleast statistically.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
social said:
And in the 5th test it comes back to 24.

What's it prove in relation to Murali?

Nothing.

Which are about all the assertions that he would perform as consistently in 5 test series are worth.
his 5 test series are against England. And Murali hasn't played that many 5 test series. Your point being?................
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
FaaipDeOiad said:
Haha, that's a good one. So, what's Warne's record in the fourth and fifth tests of a series, compared to the early tests? What's the difference between their records in the first and second tests of a series, and why didn't you post that? What's Murali's record in third tests excluding Zimbabwe and Bangladesh, and how exactly are we to judge him in a long series given that he has never played one? You really are the worst user of statistics on this forum by a mile. You pick a random example which happens to go with your pre-concieved opinion, and quote it as if it is the gospel truth without considering the context that the record in question was achieved in.

And as far as you accusing me of blind patriotism, well you can shove it as far as I'm concerned. You know nothing about me, and if you think I'm blindly patriotic you clearly don't read any posts I write on this forum on any topic other than Murali vs Warne. And frankly, if anyone here can be accused of being blind on the subject its certainly you, as your contribution to every debate on Murali and Warne is to paste a notepad file of misleading stats and repeat ad-nauseum that Murali has a superior statistical record without addressing any of the arguments on the subject which go beyond who has a better average.

Go back to plagiarising other people's film reviews and pasting the same thing in every thread on a pet subject, rather than accusing me of being biased.
Again, Murali doesn't play too many 5 test series to be compared to Warne in that aspect. Warne has had more success simply because he has had more opportunities. (something you guys often use against Murali, yet forget it in this instance)
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Tom Halsey said:
Can't argue with the rest of it, but at one point his average was 22 (same as Murali's), and no he didn't have the same strike rate but his economy rate was lower than Murali's (which seems to show Warne was blocked out to an even bigger extent than Murali is now). And he didn't play all his cricket on dustbowls (and I don't care what anyone says but a spinner would rather play on a dustbowl than anywhere else).
I know of a few spinners who would rather bowl on a bouncy hard track than on a dustbowl. Ahmedabad was a dustbowl when NZ came there and see how easily they were able to milk out a draw. Batsmen with patience can always thrive on dustbowls simply because the ball comes on so slowly than any batsmen with a decent amount of patience can adjust and survive. Minefields are different, though........
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
honestbharani said:
I meant overall. But even by your argument, they are equal and one is still not better than the other, atleast statistically.
As you will see from a previous post of mine Halsey was wrong - it is not 4 all and has not been even since 2000.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
a massive zebra said:
As you will see from a previous post of mine Halsey was wrong - it is not 4 all and has not been even since 2000.
No, and if you look at my post after it it was something along the lines of - "My mistake - it is not 4 all against countries, it is 4 all in countries."

As I said, it's now 5-3 because Murali now has a better average in India than Warne. (Curiously, one country where Warne had a better average than Murali was India).
 

C_C

International Captain
Tom Halsey said:
Can't argue with the rest of it, but at one point his average was 22 (same as Murali's), and no he didn't have the same strike rate but his economy rate was lower than Murali's (which seems to show Warne was blocked out to an even bigger extent than Murali is now). And he didn't play all his cricket on dustbowls (and I don't care what anyone says but a spinner would rather play on a dustbowl than anywhere else).
Before McGrath rose in 1995 ( his breakout year), Warney was averaging about as much as Murali was but he simply was not the wicket-taker to the level Murali is.

Also, since then, Warney hasn't carried the OZ attack the same way Murali has carried the OZ attack - the few times he's had to play without McGrath's backup, he averages 27+. That is a clear indication of his dependency on the pace bowlers removing the top order and exposing the middle - more to the extent than Murali.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
C_C said:
Before McGrath rose in 1995 ( his breakout year), Warney was averaging about as much as Murali was but he simply was not the wicket-taker to the level Murali is.

Also, since then, Warney hasn't carried the OZ attack the same way Murali has carried the OZ attack - the few times he's had to play without McGrath's backup, he averages 27+. That is a clear indication of his dependency on the pace bowlers removing the top order and exposing the middle - more to the extent than Murali.
Yes, but that was because he was blocked out to an even bigger extent, as an ER of 2.2 an over shows. And he played in unfavourable conditions, compared with what Murali plays on.
 

Top