*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[smash84]

Not denying that Windies in 90-91 were the best team (mainly because of their phenomenal fast bowling). But I am comparing Aus batting line-up in 94-95 with Windies batting line-up in 90-91 (minus Richards - who did not make that tour). Greenidge (and Haynes) was clearly at the end of his career. Lara just made his debut. IMO, Aussie line-up in 94-95 was significantly better as the nucleus of the team was in it's peak in age and in experience.

All I am saying is that not crossing the 300 mark barrier is probably not a great way to judge the WI performance.

 

[smash84]

Border, Taylor, and Waugh brothers makes some sense but what's Ian Healy doing amongst all the big guns that you mention?????

And Haynes was still a good 3 years from his retirement. Was still pretty decent back then.

 

[Altaican]

Border, Taylor, and Waugh brothers makes some sense but what's Ian Healy doing amongst all the big guns that you mention?????

And Haynes was still a good 3 years from his retirement. Was still pretty decent back then.

Healy in 94-95 was better than Dujon in 90-91. Healy actually scored 2 50s in the 94-95 series. Dujon's average was 6.00 (yes, 6 runs per innings, with highest score of 17). I am talking about the entire batting line-up (including the respective Wicket-keepers) as a whole. Why this repeated come-backs? Why don't you do a man-to-man comparison of the 2 line-ups (taking in their averages, their age and stages of their careers at that point of time)? You should have the answer yourself.

 

[Altaican]

Border, Taylor, and Waugh brothers makes some sense but what's Ian Healy doing amongst all the big guns that you mention?????

And Haynes was still a good 3 years from his retirement. Was still pretty decent back then.

Also Border had retired by then. Taylor was the captain. Boon was their most experienced batsman. The Team, in general was in it's ascent as the World's best team.

 

[smash84]

. Why this repeated come-backs? Why don't you do a man-to-man comparison of the 2 line-ups (taking in their averages, their age and stages of their careers at that point of time)? You should have the answer yourself.

Because Healy was hardly a renowned batsman and somebody that you would consider in a batting line-up.

And I didn't say that Australia didn't have a better batting line-up. They probably did but you are needlessly putting down some of the greats of WI cricket (like Haynes and Greenidge). And I am not sure how bad Greenidge really was towards the end of his career but some batsman are quite good up to the last test match that they play.

Incidentally Greenidge played 12 matches in the last 2 years of his career and his average was around 35. His career average was around 45. Incidentally he he played 9 of those matches against Eng and Australia and still averaged around 45 with the bat. Hardly a meagre average. It is only the series in Pak that he played in which he averages less than 10 that really gives his average a downward push. So maybe you might as well give some credit to Waqar and Co.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[vcs]

Yeah, it's bizarre and cyclic to argue that "they averaged only so much in this series" and "only put up a 300+ score once", therefore they were past their prime. If they had been successful instead, you'd be saying Waqar failed against them. Can't have it both ways.

 

[Altaican]

Because Healy was hardly a renowned batsman and somebody that you would consider in a batting line-up.

And I didn't say that Australia didn't have a better batting line-up. They probably did but you are needlessly putting down some of the greats of WI cricket (like Haynes and Greenidge). And I am not sure how bad Greenidge really was towards the end of his career but some batsman are quite good up to the last test match that they play.

Incidentally Greenidge played 12 matches in the last 2 years of his career and his average was around 35. His career average was around 45. Incidentally he he played 9 of those matches against Eng and Australia and still averaged around 45 with the bat. Hardly a meagre average. It is only the series in Pak that he played in which he averages less than 10 that really gives his average a downward push. So maybe you might as well give some credit to Waqar and Co.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

You seem to be taking this personally. Go back and read my original post, I clearly mentioned "Let us not jump between the extremes here, I am NOT saying Windies line-ups were bad, all I am saying is Aussie line-up of 94-95 were much more dependable under tough conditions.". You just repeated what I originally said. Healy might not have been a great bat but he was an integral part of that successful team (just as Dujon was for the Windies in the 80s) and has quite often contributed with the bat lower down the order. Greenidge was 39 in that series and clearly past it, whatever other stats not withstanding.

My point is simple: the Aussie batting line-up that Waqar bowled at in 94-95 was better than the Windies batting line-up that Waqar bowled at 90-91 (again IMO). If that sounds to you like taking credit away from Waqar, really don't know what to say.

Stats apart, it would help if you had actually followed Windies batting in that series and Aus batting in their series. Otherwise you can just go on and on just based on the names.

Also mentioned clearly in my post that I consider Waqar an ATG fast bowler. But objectively I can see some valid reasons why his name may not be taken by most people along with Marshall's when compiling ATG lists. You can disagree with those reasons. To me they seem strong enough. Nothing to do with his status as an ATG fast bowler though IMO.

 

[smash84]

You seem to be taking this personally.

My point is simple: the Aussie batting line-up that Waqar bowled at in 94-95 was better than the Windies batting line-up that Waqar bowled at 90-91 (again IMO). If that sounds to you like taking credit away from Waqar, really don't know what to say.

Stats apart, it would help if you had actually followed Windies batting in that series and Aus batting in their series. Otherwise you can just go on and on just based on the names.

.

Your post made it look like you were taking it personally and then making an all out attack. I was only responding to what you had said.

And to say that the Aussie line-up of 94-95 were "much more dependable under tough conditions" than a WI line-up of Greenidge, Haynes, Lara, Hooper, Richie Richardson is a big big statement to make. Better yes but to make it sound like there was daylight between the two batting sides might be stretching it.

That is all that I am saying. No need to take it to heart.

 

[Altaican]

Your post made it look like you were taking it personally and then making an all out attack. I was only responding to what you had said.

And to say that the Aussie line-up of 94-95 were "much more dependable under tough conditions" than a WI line-up of Greenidge, Haynes, Lara, Hooper, Richie Richardson is a big big statement to make. Better yes but to make it sound like there was daylight between the two batting sides might be stretching it.

That is all that I am saying. No need to take it to heart.

Would have helped if you watched or followed Windies batting back then. Lara played 1 Test in that series and it was his debut in Test cricket. Including his name in the comparison is meaningless for all practical purposes. Greenidge was past it at 39. It was his second-last Test series and his final season as a Test cricketer. This is the problem of doing name-based comparison without having an idea about how good those names were at that point of time. Windies would have been slaughtered if it weren't for their fast bowling. Their batting revolved around Haynes, Richardson and Hooper. And as great stroke-players as they were (in 91), to me, they were inferior to the Aussie line-up of 94-95.

Also, with the exception of Hooper and Richardson, most of the West Indians were 35 or older at time. In contrast the oldest Aussie in 94-95 line-up was Boon (aged 33 years). The Waugh brothers were 29. Healy and Taylor were 30. Langer, Slater and Bevan were 24.

 

[Teja.]

Yeah, Will have to disagree with Altacian about the strength of the batting line-ups here. Points are finely made though.

 

[smash84]

Also, with the exception of Hooper and Richardson, most of the West Indians were 35 or older at time. In contrast the oldest Aussie in 94-95 line-up was Boon (aged 33 years). The Waugh brothers were 29. Healy and Taylor were 30. Langer, Slater and Bevan were 24.

By this token anyone who hasn't watched another player/team play shouldn't have any comments regarding them. Extending this further most of the posters on this forum shouldn't be commenting on all time greats who they were not fortunate enough to watch.

Also, with the exception of Hooper and Richardson, most of the West Indians were 35 or older at time. In contrast the oldest Aussie in 94-95 line-up was Boon (aged 33 years). The Waugh brothers were 29. Healy and Taylor were 30. Langer, Slater and Bevan were 24.

So??? 35 and above doesn't mean that the batting line up will be crap. IIRC the Aussie batting line up in the 2007 Ashes were not a bunch of teenagers. Most of them were quite old too but they were still fantastic batsmen.

 

[marc71178]

By this token anyone who hasn't watched another player/team play shouldn't have any comments regarding them.

Judging by a lot of the comments putting down past players based solely on stats from people on here, you have a point.

 

[robelinda]

Which tour did Richards miss in 90/91?? Thought he missed nothing in those final years until he retired in england in 91.

 

[Altaican]

Which tour did Richards miss in 90/91?? Thought he missed nothing in those final years until he retired in england in 91.

Viv missed the 90-91 Pakistan tour.

 

[robelinda]

Oh, thanks. Was he injured? Cant say I remember anything at all about that tour!!!!! Better go look it up.

 

[smash84]

Viv missed the 90-91 Pakistan tour.

Wow. Just looked up the scorecards. This was a gun ODI and test series.

Pak won all the ODIs by a whisker and the test series was drawn 1-1 with the final match being a very very close draw.

Pretty decent performance by Imran in the final match with both bat and ball considering he was 38 yrs old. Took 4 key wickets in the match and saved the match in the final innings for Pakistan. Just a little more time and the match may have gone any way.

 

[Burgey]

Game

Set

Match.

Kudos to Warnie. And to Liz too tbf.

 

[vcs]

I didn't know she was a better spinner than both Warne and Murali...

 

[Mike5181]

Warne should soooo get in there

 

[honestbharani]

Judging by a lot of the comments putting down past players based solely on stats from people on here, you have a point.

Sig worthy, tbh..