• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Hmm ok. Still a semi-valid point though but as I stated before only a small portion.
I'm sure a small portion of Sri-Lankans, maybe people from the sub-continent also, could like Murali more for similar reasons. It's hardly a rarity, and I'm sure any real cricket fan disregards such things, as skin-colour. You might as well like a player better than another player for the style of their hair.

Humans are strange beings, they'll feel safe and personalise things that make sense to them and that are similar to them. Maybe this is one of them.

Personally, I am a Persian/Iranian and I grew up in Australia. But basing this on race? Come on..

It's sad to see a nice, constructive debate turn this way. The irony, for those that brought it up, is that 'race' was not brought up by the Aussies, even though both parties can be guilty of the same thing.
 

roseboy64

Cricket Web Content Updater
I'm pretty sure I said that it not's only Australians. Also, I didnt bring it up but only agreed that it may be possible.
 

adharcric

International Coach
silentstriker said:
Of course it is relevant to the overall culture. It is not relevant when talking about specific individuals, like archie. If you don't think caste system still plays a huge part in how people are perceived or treated, for example, even in well off places and outside the subcontinent...you are kidding yourself.
Racial history is not really the problem though. Racism in America was huge just a few decades ago but it has diminished quite a bit. India's problem right now is that it hasn't gotten over the caste system, not that the caste system developed in the first place. Anyways, I'll let it go now.
 
Last edited:

archie mac

International Coach
Wow, again, you are making accusations that quite clearly aren't warranted. He wasn't having a go at all aussies or trying to say that you were racist...
I would simply like to be able to express an opinion without the word 'Racist' being used on almost every occasion, whether directed to me all my Country, which I am extremely proud of:)
 

archie mac

International Coach
I never said all Australians are racist. I did say that that is the basis for a few to put Warne over Muralitharan though. That is why a few won't even accept a well made point favouring the latter as their prejudices won't allow them to.

Okay, you gave me a break on Sir Ferguson, so I will cut you some slack and let the matter rest:happy:
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
I would simply like to be able to express an opinion without the word 'Racist' being used on almost every occasion, whether directed to me all my Country, which I am extremely proud of:)
Sigh, as far as I can tell, no one has called Australia a racist country. At least, not me. All I said is that the racist minorities (that undoubtedly exist in all countries) seem to be more vocal in Australian stadiums than anywhere else. That's all.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Wow, again, you are making accusations that quite clearly aren't warranted. He wasn't having a go at all aussies or trying to say that you were racist...
No, but a comment was posted that if Murali was a white Aussie we'd be doing loads every time he took a wicket, which was followed by posts saying that the comment was justified because of Australia's racial past, and that the basis for the Murali criticism in Australia was racially motivated.

Don't frankly see how you can get it clearer than that. There was more to it than there being racist idiots in crowds (point out here SS that it 'twas not your comment which set it off originally).

BTW, liking your pace bowling avatars lately. Still not as funny as the Indian seamers one earlier though.
 

adharcric

International Coach
No, but a comment was posted that if Murali was a white Aussie we'd be doing loads every time he took a wicket, which was followed by posts saying that the comment was justified because of Australia's racial past, and that the basis for the Murali criticism in Australia was racially motivated.

Don't frankly see how you can get it clearer than that. There was more to it than there being racist idiots in crowds (point out here SS that it 'twas not your comment which set it off originally).
Somehow, I feel that there are a few biased Aussie fans who despise Murali not only because he is Warne's competitor and a non-Aussie but also because he is from the subcontinent (and not English, for instance). These fans would probably do "loads every time he took a wicket" if he was a white Aussie. Considering these fans are an extremely small minority, I don't really see why people like you, Sean or Zac need to take this as an insult to Australia. Perhaps I did not read the posts that you were reacting to carefully enough. There is definitely some crud in Australia, as there is in India and most other nations. If someone tells me that there are a few racist folks in the US or absolute idiots in India, I can accept that. Regarding the "racial history" of Australia comment, I can understand your anger.
 
Last edited:

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Somehow, I feel that there are a few biased Aussie fans who despise Murali not only because he is Warne's competitor and a non-Aussie but also because he is from the subcontinent (and not English, for instance). These fans would probably do "loads every time he took a wicket" if he was a white Aussie. Considering these fans are an extremely small minority, I don't really see why people like you, Sean or Zac need to take this as an insult to Australia. There is definitely some crud in Australia, as there is in India and most other nations. If someone tells me that there are a few racist ****s in the US or absolute idiots in India, I can accept that.
Fair enough - I take your point.

Can't speak for the others, but perhaps I over-reacted to it. If I did I apologise, but one never wants to be thought of in the same breath as the idiots you speak of in your post.
 

adharcric

International Coach
Being one of the respectable, distinguished Australian posters on here (along with pretty much every other Aussie around), you should realize that such statements are not aimed at you, even if they appear to be sweeping generalizations.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
That's true - and it's probably one of the weaknesses of this form of communicatoin in that sometimes things look worse written than they do spoken, where you can judge what people are saying by expression, inflection, etc. :)
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I accept that. I also accept that if Alexander and his team-mates had toured the US, they wouldn't have been able to get on the same bus in some states at that time. The white Australia policy was disbanded in the late 60s-early 70s.
If that's the basis of saying Australia has a racist past, then so do all the other countries, including SA, India, UK and US. Not to excuse it, but it's a fact. So why would it be a basis for seeking to invalidate critics of Murali from this country instead of any other?
Re. the riots here at Cronulla - was an anti-Middle Eastern thing iirc. Still diabolical though and a moment of great shame, frankly for most right-thinking (as opposed to Right-thinking) Australians.
I think the point that Warne is such a hero to so many here is probably a more vaild one - there tends to be a zealous/ over-zealous defending of his record over anyone else's.
Re the Lee issue - I suppose it's not discussed in this particular thread given the subject of it. I have heard it discussed a few times on CW, but certainly not to the extent of the Murali issue. Why that's so I don't know, given that CW has members from all over. I suspect it may have to do with Murali's record rather than a race thing, because we don't really discuss many others re. their actions, be they from anywhere.
There was a recent thing on here not long ago, including a discussion involving SS re Shoaib's delivery, but for the most part it's not discussed as much. Personally, I haven't really looked into the evidence of whether Shoaib chucks or not, and based on the times I've seen him bowl, I don't think so. As for Lee, I think he's had some problems in the past when he's gone wider on the crease, and I think he was reported about it and did some remedial work. I haven't heard it mentioned too much lately though.
I do know that there have been some other Aussie bowlers who have had their actions queried - Aaron Bird is one - and they've had to go and be analysed before having remedial work done on their actions. Perhaps, and it's only a maybe, those guys might get picked up within the under age elite squads or at 1st class level befor they get international exposure. If you look at the individuals who've done most of the bowling for Australia in recent times, there probably hasn't been an issue (Lee aside) - Gillespie, McGrath, S Clark, Kaspa, Warne, McGill - they weren't individuals whose actions have been under suspicion. But that doesn't mean that the next young quick form here who comes through won't be scrutinised if his action is suspect.
I suppose, with Lee as with anyone, it needs to be monitored because you might have someone who normally has an action that passes muster, but on a certain day, fatigue or injury may cause that person to infringe. Which is why, imo, it was madness to take the decision on throwing out of the umpire's hands on the field.
well, not exactly racism in India, more like casteism, but I get your point. :)



But again, it is hard to hand over control about calling people on their bowling actions to the umpires when it has been proved that they are unable to detect the flex in almost every bowlers' action. Best we can hope for is that there are enough cameras around in international cricket using which some reasonably accurate measurements can be made to find out the guys who are in violation of the rule. HOpefully, with time, it will come down to FC cricket as well, at least...
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Except when someone said some derogatory remark at a player in the US, it made front page ESPN news. In Australia, it seems to be, if not tolerated, accepted that it will happen and people just say the victims should 'get tougher.' There have been couple first-hand reports from members on this forum who have seen/experienced first hand that type of thing, yet I've been going to US sports games for 10 years, and have never heard or seen something like that there. Something is different, no? That doesn't mean that majority are that way, or even a big minority. But the minority, small as it may be, feels comfortable being vocal without all that much fear.

India, I know it happens a lot to those of lower caste. England, it happens but from all the account I've read, to a much lesser degree these days (except for more isolated incidents). Frankly, I don't care if you think he throws or not, especially as I think he might. What matters is that some of those who do think he throws are comfortable using racist taunts and bigoted comments in Australian sporting venues.



Of course it is relevant to the overall culture. It is not relevant when talking about specific individuals, like archie. If you don't think caste system still plays a huge part in how people are perceived or treated, for example, even in well off places and outside the subcontinent...you are kidding yourself.



Australia have won a lot of games because their overall talent far exceeds any other country..Not because they have, man for man, the best players in the world. And there is nothing wrong with national pride or thinking x is better than y. Even I do it, and I hate most of the indian players. :p
one point, SS.... In South India at least, casteism is all but vanished. Here and there, u get a few instances, but honestly, given the amazing progress the people from those castes have made in terms of success in life, it is all but abolished. As a matter of fact, a lot of the so called "forward" castes are in a much worser way than these guys and the conflicts are slowly becoming a thing of the past. What you said was what USED to happen, don't think it happens that much anymore.
 

archie mac

International Coach
No, but a comment was posted that if Murali was a white Aussie we'd be doing loads every time he took a wicket, which was followed by posts saying that the comment was justified because of Australia's racial past, and that the basis for the Murali criticism in Australia was racially motivated.

Don't frankly see how you can get it clearer than that. There was more to it than there being racist idiots in crowds (point out here SS that it 'twas not your comment which set it off originally).

BTW, liking your pace bowling avatars lately. Still not as funny as the Indian seamers one earlier though.
I must admit i thought it pretty black & white:ph34r:
 

archie mac

International Coach
Sigh, as far as I can tell, no one has called Australia a racist country. At least, not me. All I said is that the racist minorities (that undoubtedly exist in all countries) seem to be more vocal in Australian stadiums than anywhere else. That's all.
Tbf I never mentioned you any of my posts, you jumped in of your own choice:)
 

adharcric

International Coach
one point, SS.... In South India at least, casteism is all but vanished. Here and there, u get a few instances, but honestly, given the amazing progress the people from those castes have made in terms of success in life, it is all but abolished. As a matter of fact, a lot of the so called "forward" castes are in a much worser way than these guys and the conflicts are slowly becoming a thing of the past. What you said was what USED to happen, don't think it happens that much anymore.
Have you been to villages in South India?
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
one point, SS.... In South India at least, casteism is all but vanished. Here and there, u get a few instances, but honestly, given the amazing progress the people from those castes have made in terms of success in life, it is all but abolished. As a matter of fact, a lot of the so called "forward" castes are in a much worser way than these guys and the conflicts are slowly becoming a thing of the past. What you said was what USED to happen, don't think it happens that much anymore.
I can't speak to the south but I've just gotten back from India again, and it is very much alive in the western parts. It's just as bad as it was when I lived there. In fact, I see it as much worse now because I have a different perspective.
 

Top