** Official ** Sri Lanka in New Zealand tour

[marc71178]

Whats good is that NZ are consistently reaching at least 400 in their first innings. But they're going to have to fix this 2nd innings problem if they want to win in South Africa.

Perhaps the answer to that is to score enough in the 1st to win by an innings?

 

[marc71178]

All we need now is for Bond, Vettori, Styris, Oram and Butler to be fit, then we have a pretty good squad that could push S.Africa at home.

That has the makings of a good series - what is the likely NZ starting line-up with everyone fit? There'd be some tough calls to make.

 

[Zinzan]

That has the makings of a good series - what is the likely NZ starting line-up with everyone fit? There'd be some tough calls to make.

Extremely tough. Will obviously depend on form to an extent. The biggest problem we have is too many middle order batsmen at the moment ...with everyone fit we have the following batsmen competing for positions 3-6 ...

Fleming
Astle
Styris
Oram
H Marshall
and
Vincent

thats 6 good proven batsmen competing for 4 slots in the lineup.

I'm still not convinced with Cumming at test level...he has some obvious technical deficiencies with playing around his front leg which oppositions can work on.

As crazy as it sounds given his success in the middle order, I almost think Vincent might be best opening if you want Styris, Oram and Astle in the middle order given Fleming is a shoe-in.
I know it sounds daft to change something thats working with Vincent, but it is still an option. Remember he has opened before and scored his debut hundred against Australia at Perth in that position.

Another option is both Marshall's to open and playing Styris at 3 and Oram at 7 which allows you Fleming, Vincent and Astle at 4,5 and 6. The only problem having Oram at 7 is it puts a lot of pressure on his bowling and H/Marshall has had a lot of success at 3.

Bowling selections will also be interesting. The obvious attack would be Bond (if fit) sharing the new ball with Martin, with Franklin, Oram and Vettori making up the rest of the attack.

I'd also like to see Butler putting pressure on other seamers because I still think he has potential and pace can be a real asset on S.African tracks.

Definately a difficult job for the selectors

 

[anzac]

What are you talking about? James Marshall has opened all his life, and has always opened the innings for ND bar this season where he played a few games at 4.

yes you're right & it's only my opinion, but for me James seems to be the same sort of player as Hamish & his results in the middle order for ND this season have breathed a new life into his game....................

I have no doubt that he can be effective as an opener on pitches that have some bounce & the ball comes onto the bat, but like Vincent I also think he will have problems on slow / low / seaming wickets.............

problem for me that if the selectors see things the same way (& given that he would not have been their 1st choice ahead of Papps or How), then he will be up against Hamish & Vincent for the same sort of role, as well as the likes of Astle, Styris, Fulton, Taylor, McMillan, Sinclair & Ryder for a squad berth...........

 

[Sir Redman]

Extremely tough. Will obviously depend on form to an extent. The biggest problem we have is too many middle order batsmen at the moment ...with everyone fit we have the following batsmen competing for positions 3-6 ...

Fleming
Astle
Styris
Oram
H Marshall
and
Vincent

thats 6 good proven batsmen competing for 4 slots in the lineup.

I'm still not convinced with Cumming at test level...he has some obvious technical deficiencies with playing around his front leg which oppositions can work on.

As crazy as it sounds given his success in the middle order, I almost think Vincent might be best opening if you want Styris, Oram and Astle in the middle order given Fleming is a shoe-in.
I know it sounds daft to change something thats working with Vincent, but it is still an option. Remember he has opened before and scored his debut hundred against Australia at Perth in that position.

Another option is both Marshall's to open and playing Styris at 3 and Oram at 7 which allows you Fleming, Vincent and Astle at 4,5 and 6. The only problem having Oram at 7 is it puts a lot of pressure on his bowling and H/Marshall has had a lot of success at 3.

Bowling selections will also be interesting. The obvious attack would be Bond (if fit) sharing the new ball with Martin, with Franklin, Oram and Vettori making up the rest of the attack.

I'd also like to see Butler putting pressure on other seamers because I still think he has potential and pace can be a real asset on S.African tracks.

Definately a difficult job for the selectors

Good summary, but I really dont want Vincent going back to opening. Now that he looks set in the middle order it could be a disastrous move sending him back up the top. I think Styris is the most at risk, as with little/no cricket between now and August he may struggle to adjust to the highest level again.
Personally, I like the idea of Oram at 7. I am a firm believer in having specialist batsmen/genuine allrounders down to 7, and given the nature of our second innings collapses recently having a strong batsman down there would (hopefully) decrease the frequency of these collapses.

 

[anzac]

Styris will definately get priority over Vincent when he returns from injury. Styris will however, be under huge pressure to score runs straight away.

don't agree - Styris wasn't having the best of seasons as much as any of the batsmen - like Tuffey he needs to play his way in to the side as much as someone needs to play their way out of it.............

esp if Styris is no longer seen as a bowling option he's lost that edge to Astle, and Vincent's abilities with the gloves gives him an edge.............

 

[shaka]

Astle got a few wickets, in the two tests against Sri Lanka, has helped that second statement Anzac

 

[anzac]

Sensational knock from Vincent.
When we were 6 down, I thought srilanka were back in it but no, lou vincent played a great knock.

Tim, surely you can't drop vincent after this? not only this but I thought he looked comfortable vs Australia as well.

If I had it my way, Cumming would be dropped from the 11, Astle would open. leaving place for both Styris and vincent as I rate them both highly, but I can't see bracewell having the brains to open with astle. So if they are going to have the same openers, then Astle should be out rather than vincent, away from from home in Southafrica I'd back both vincent and styris to score more runs for us.

Really We should win in Zimbabwe either way so its all about the southafrican series.

don't agree with dropping Cumming or James as of yet, but agree with everything else - I've suggested Astle as an possible opening alternative in the past - for me it would depend on the type of pitch as much as anything...............

but as I've also said b4 I'm of the opinion that the likes of Astle / Styris / Macca / Ryder as all 'aggresive hitters' as opposed to 'aggresive stroke makers', and should be playing for max of 2 spots in a 6 man batting lineup.............and should NOT be batting in sequence as I do not feel that they rotate the strike / enough SS.............

 

[Zinzan]

Good summary, but I really dont want Vincent going back to opening. Now that he looks set in the middle order it could be a disastrous move sending him back up the top. I think Styris is the most at risk, as with little/no cricket between now and August he may struggle to adjust to the highest level again.
Personally, I like the idea of Oram at 7. I am a firm believer in having specialist batsmen/genuine allrounders down to 7, and given the nature of our second innings collapses recently having a strong batsman down there would (hopefully) decrease the frequency of these collapses.

Fair enough....but if you did leave Styris out, would you stick with Cumming or would you have a look at How or Fulton to partner J.Marshall ??

We really miss Richardson already

 

[anzac]

I don't see why Styris should be able to walk in to the team as soon as he's fit... he probably is a better batsman than Vincent, but after this double century, I think Styris should have to work his way back in, or wait for Vincent to fail... somewhat like the Lee - Kasprowicz situation, I think.

don't know that Styris is a better batsman - can't recall too many consistant examples of what Lou did in his 2nd innings digs prior to the big one..............

 

[anzac]

So you're prepared to kill 2 birds with 1 stone by dropping Cumming & then probably ruining Vincent's promising middle-order career?

We've got to stop mucking around with our openers. Im sick and tired of middle order batsmen being sent up the order to do patch up jobs.
The best thing we can do is start consistently giving 2 guys a decent run as openers...very rarely do you see a player go straight into test cricket & score runs easily. We've had a couple of cases recently (Strauss, H.Marshall & Clarke off the top of my head), but it's not often.

And no doubt Strauss & Hamish Marshall will eventually go through a poor patch, just like Michael Clarke is experiencing at the moment.

agreed - unless we have an absolute abundance of riches we should leave James & Cumming in place until such time as they either fall apart or a better specialist option is found - which going by what has been said would appear to be at least another season away atm...........

and I'm afraid that if they are to look at using middle order specialists they need to also look at 'horses for courses' because of our domestic pitches & conditions IMO...........

 

[anzac]

The difference being that Styris has some recent Test form to base a recall on.

not that hot really...............a total of 70 runs in 4 digs in AUS prior to injury.........

 

[Zinzan]

not that hot really...............a total of 70 runs in 4 digs in AUS prior to injury.........

Correct, but pretty much all our batsmen with the exception of Oram struggled in that test series in Australia.

How quickly we seem to have forgotten his match winning 170 coming in at 3 against S.Africa last year as well as his excellent test century against England in the 3rd test.

He has got an average of 40 in test cricket with 4 century's in around 19 matches. And he is more than handy with the ball.

but too many good middle order batsmen is definately a problem for NZ at the moment.

 

[anzac]

Where did I get this idea from?
Straight out of the selection hand-book.

Styris still averages 40 in test cricket & has only recently gone through a lean patch. He is the still ahead of Vincent in the pecking order. All Vincent can do now is keep racking up the runs and hopefully for him, Styris continues his poor form.

the 1st question will be will they keep a 6-4 split when eveyone is available - particularly Oram..............

if they do then the balance of the batting lineup needs to be looked at as much as who's in form etc (& IMO the balance has NOT been right for some time in a 5-5 split)..........

lastly the biggest thing that impressed me was Vincent's fighting qualities in those 2 2nd innings digs - I haven't seen much evidence of that other than from Vettori, and I don't think it would have been quite so effective in a 5-5 split - likewise with his double..............

 

[anzac]

There is no way Astle can (or should) be dropped.

not after the series he's had with bat & ball.............

 

[anzac]

I probably wouldn't drop Astle, but can someone tell me why he's such a sacred cow to a lot of people? How does 1 Man of the Match award in 70 tests make anyone untouchable, especially if NZ want to aspire to greater things?

His high 30's average is very good by NZ standards historically, but batting has clearly been taken up a notch the world over. It's not like the "but Astle's based on terrible, green NZ pitches" argument holds up - he averages 7.5 runs less away than he does at home.

agreed - I've been bemoaning the lack of hard yards the senior players are asked to do..........

 

[Ming]

Cumming would be dropped from the 11, Astle would open. leaving place for both Styris and vincent as I rate them both highly, but I can't see bracewell having the brains to open with astle

Maybe it's just that you have a wild brain to think of Astle opening in Tests. He's done the job in the middle-order, and hasn't opened much if at all in first-class games. Opening in ODIs and Tests are different.

 

[Sir Redman]

Fair enough....but if you did leave Styris out, would you stick with Cumming or would you have a look at How or Fulton to partner J.Marshall ??

We really miss Richardson already

I think we have to stick with Cumming. I'm not completely convinced that he's up to test match opening standard, but he has a bit of experience now and seems to have a good temperament at least.

As for How, I really dont know what to think of him. He obviously has plenty of talent and a good technique (from the little I've seen) but he seems to not value his wicket highly enough ("he's very loose" as Martin Crowe would say). He just seems to get out for no reason on a perfectly good pitch (mind you, which NZ batsmen dont?) with shots that dont need to be played. Compare that to players like Strauss and Hamish Marshall who seem to really hate getting out - everytime they get out the look on their face says "I will never get out like that again" - and I think you can see why those players have had such success already.

Fulton has to be a middle order player IMO. I just dont think its a good idea shoving all these players up to open when they have little or no experience of it. A reason some batsmen become middle order players is because they are not good early on against the new ball. They specialise in getting in against an older ball, so when the second new ball comes around they are already well established.

And with James Marshall, he doesnt seem to have completely settled in. He has a few runs, but just doesnt look as assured as Hamish has. Maybe its pressure from what his brother has done or maybe its opening, but he just hasnt quite looked like he will really dominate bowlers in years to come.

 

[Zinzan]

I think we have to stick with Cumming. I'm not completely convinced that he's up to test match opening standard, but he has a bit of experience now and seems to have a good temperament at least.

As for How, I really dont know what to think of him. He obviously has plenty of talent and a good technique (from the little I've seen) but he seems to not value his wicket highly enough ("he's very loose" as Martin Crowe would say). He just seems to get out for no reason on a perfectly good pitch (mind you, which NZ batsmen dont?) with shots that dont need to be played. Compare that to players like Strauss and Hamish Marshall who seem to really hate getting out - everytime they get out the look on their face says "I will never get out like that again" - and I think you can see why those players have had such success already.

Fulton has to be a middle order player IMO. I just dont think its a good idea shoving all these players up to open when they have little or no experience of it. A reason some batsmen become middle order players is because they are not good early on against the new ball. They specialise in getting in against an older ball, so when the second new ball comes around they are already well established.

And with James Marshall, he doesnt seem to have completely settled in. He has a few runs, but just doesnt look as assured as Hamish has. Maybe its pressure from what his brother has done or maybe its opening, but he just hasnt quite looked like he will really dominate bowlers in years to come.

I agree Hamish looks a much more assured player than his brother....I'd put that down to confidence at this point.

yeah..I hope i'm wrong with Cumming because we need a solid dependable opener, but he has a lot of work to be done yet.

 

[anzac]

Good summary, but I really dont want Vincent going back to opening. Now that he looks set in the middle order it could be a disastrous move sending him back up the top. I think Styris is the most at risk, as with little/no cricket between now and August he may struggle to adjust to the highest level again.
Personally, I like the idea of Oram at 7. I am a firm believer in having specialist batsmen/genuine allrounders down to 7, and given the nature of our second innings collapses recently having a strong batsman down there would (hopefully) decrease the frequency of these collapses.

yes - if we were able to combine the efforts of Vincent & Vettori in their respective 2nd innings digs in a 6-4 split then you have the basis for a strong lower order rearguard action...........problem being was that they did not get to play together due to Vettori's illness.............