• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

***Official*** Sri Lanka in England

JBH001

International Regular
If I may echo Jono here, "Wow. Just wow.."

What a fantastic performance by Sri Lanka. A total massacre of English hopes and aspirations. One especially unlikely, nay near impossible at the start of the series. One only has to read the comments at the start of this thread, and then read the comments over the last few pages to realise the total turn around Sri Lanka has achieved.

To be honest, England has been a shambles in this ODI series and blaming it on lack of a so-called "first team" is counterproductive. Especially as all it indicates is a tremendous lack of depth in the English FC system, not to mention that some of those players may never return - or if they did, it would likely not be for long.

Also, and far more crucially there has been a little too much glassy eyed reminiscence of The Ashes 2005. Constantly looking back (and forever harping on about the players concerned) has only hampered them and prevented them from looking forward.

Also, dare I say it - it may be time for Fletcher to go. At least as ODI coach.
He has been around for 8 years and in international coaching terms that is almost forever - a new coach with an injection of new ideas may be required.

Also, Zinzan 12, lets not get too ahead of ourselves.
The New Zealand team (in tests or ODI's) has little to recommend itself.
 

Autobahn

State 12th Man
Goughy said:
England have an unofficial policy of only picking players who are 6'4"+, young and bowl at above decent pace. I will try and find the quote that stated this. (BTW Hoggard was selected before this policy was introduced).

I have no problem with this in theory but in reality it dangerously narrows the talent pool and leaves players like Saj who seem only to be picked because they fit the criteria rather than on their actual ability to bowl.
How about Wharf, Lewis and Chapple?
 

JASON

Cricketer Of The Year
For the 4th ODI at Old Trafford , I hope SL give the guys who have hitherto not played a chance to make an appearance.
I would go with -(in batting order)

Jayasuriya
Tharanga
Kapugedera
Arnold
Jayawardene or Sangakkara
Dilshan
Prasanna Jayawardene (Wicket Keeper)
Maharoof
Bandara
Malinga
Dilhara Fernando (or Ruchira Perera)
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
JBH001 said:
If I may echo Jono here, "Wow. Just wow.."

What a fantastic performance by Sri Lanka. A total massacre of English hopes and aspirations. One especially unlikely, nay near impossible at the start of the series.
To be fair, a lot of us did say SL would win fairly comfortably - my prediction is actually looking optimistic now.
 

dinu23

International Debutant
JASON said:
For the 4th ODI at Old Trafford , I hope SL give the guys who have hitherto not played a chance to make an appearance.
I would go with -(in batting order)

Jayasuriya
Tharanga
Kapugedera
Arnold
Jayawardene or Sangakkara
Dilshan
Prasanna Jayawardene (Wicket Keeper)
Maharoof
Bandara
Malinga
Dilhara Fernando (or Ruchira Perera)
Prasana in not in the squad I think.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Autobahn said:
How about Wharf, Lewis and Chapple?
What about them?

A grand total of 17 ODIs and 1 test match between them hardly shows a drastic change in selection philosophy does it?

Anyway, Wharf and Chapple are tall and Chapple used to bowl at a respectable pace (Ive no idea if he still does). Chapple has been in decent form and he was rewarded in a 'weak' game.

The Lewis selection was a giveaway to those who wanted to see him play. The selectors never really wanted him there that much is sure. He just did not fit the mould and was selected to placate members of the public and establishment.

As for Wharf, he was not picked as a specialist ODI bowler, his hard hitting batting came into the equation. The only reason he played 13 ODIs is not because the selectors really wanted him there but because he was successful. Damn, his ODI bowling average is 23 but he has not played a game in a year and a half. Why well maybe 2 reasons i) the selectors do not think he is good enough or fit enough or 2) he has passed the age of 30.

I understand your point but naming 3 marginal England cricketers is more likely to prove my point than yours.
 

Timewell

U19 Debutant
tooextracool said:
The Ashes and the ODI series last year were a fluke, they had far too much luck in their favor rather than simply being the better team.
It pains for me to say this but you are, to some extent, right! The luck we had during last summer went a long way to us securing the Ashes - the Edgbaston test, Trent Bridge, not mentioning the rain at the Oval.
 

Autobahn

State 12th Man
But in the end doesn't everyone aim for bowlers to have height and/or pace at international level?

I mean the majority of sucessful bowlers today have either one or both.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
The Ashes and the ODI series last year were a fluke, they had far too much luck in their favor rather than simply being the better team.
I've bought the 3-DVD set of the Ashes and I'll grant you the ODI series but in the Test series, England had a little luck but so did the Aussies. The difference was that England made the Aussies pay for theirs. Plus Australia made more 'unforced' errors (like getting Vaughan out off a no-ball, dropped catches, dropping Pietersen a million times before he got to 50 in the 5th Test, etc.). The 2-1 series win was probably not indicative of the difference between the sides; Edgebaston wouldn't have been as close as 2 runs had Kasper been correctly given out LBW early in his knock and England should have won the 3rd Test and but for rain, would have. Plus, I reckon England REALLY missed Simon Jones in the 5th Test. When it was dark and the old ball was swinging, I reckon he would have wrecked the Aussie batting.

If luck played it's part, then England may have had some with the bat but I don't think they had more than the Aussies. With the ball, it was a different story; Australia bowled too many no-balls, dropped too many catches and England's bowling unit was just outstanding. Overall, they were just too good and probably would have won even if McGrath hadn't been injured or at least pushed the Aussies almost as hard.

England had 5 bowlers who, when they weren't taking wickets, were at least contributing and bowling in pairs. The outstanding bowler in the English side changed every Test;

1st Test; Harmi
2nd Test; Jones
3rd Test; (to a lesser extent) Giles and Jones.
4th Test; Hoggard
5th Test; Flintoff.

Plus, you had Freddie who took 30+ wickets and was great value in all bar the first Test.

Australia had two outstanding bowlers (Warne and McGrath), one who veered from destructive to woeful (Lee), one who was lacking spark (Kasper), one who was just woeful (Dizzy) and one erratic newbie (Tait).
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Timewell said:


It pains for me to say this but you are, to some extent, right! The luck we had during last summer went a long way to us securing the Ashes - the Edgbaston test, Trent Bridge, not mentioning the rain at the Oval.
The odds before the series the both Gillespie and Kasparowicz would lose form in the manner in which they did would have been very slim. The fact that Mcgrath was effectively useless after that first test match, and the manner in which he chanced upon that injury(tripping over a ball) can surely only be put down to luck. Add the fact that England effectively won 4 tosses( thanks once to Ponting's generosity) and the Aussies dropping catches and taking wickets of no balls and the mind boggles
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
The odds before the series the both Gillespie and Kasparowicz would lose form in the manner in which they did would have been very slim.
Kasper maybe (and even in the Ashes was straight at least) but Dizzy had been bowling pap for some time. It just took a batting line-up of the quality of England's to expose him. He didn't so much lose form as have his true form revealed. Australia demolished both NZ and Pakistan in the home series and he barely took a pole. The warning signs were definitely there earlier than Lords.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Top_Cat said:
I've bought the 3-DVD set of the Ashes and I'll grant you the ODI series but in the Test series, England had a little luck but so did the Aussies. The difference was that England made the Aussies pay for theirs. Plus Australia made more 'unforced' errors (like getting Vaughan out off a no-ball, dropped catches, dropping Pietersen a million times before he got to 50 in the 5th Test, etc.). The 2-1 series win was probably not indicative of the difference between the sides; Edgebaston wouldn't have been as close as 2 runs had Kasper been correctly given out LBW early in his knock and England should have won the 3rd Test and but for rain, would have. Plus, I reckon England REALLY missed Simon Jones in the 5th Test. When it was dark and the old ball was swinging, I reckon he would have wrecked the Aussie batting.
Did England really make the Aussies 'pay for their luck'? I mean every time England had the advantage in that series they threw it away just as quickly. They scored 407 at Edgbaston but at the end of the day they were at least 100 short given the pitch, given the bowling and given the start. When they had the aussies dead and buried at the end of day 4, they miraculously let them back into the game by bowling far too short and managed to create the game of the decade out of one that they should have cake walked through. In the other 3 tests thereafter they played in the same carefree manner, having the advantage many many times only to throw it away soon after. I think if australia were to have batted first in any of the last 4 test matches and managed to get runs on the board(even 350 odd) things would have been very different. The difference between Australia and England(and indeed number 1 and number 2) is that when the Aussies have the advantage they very seldom tend to lose it. Only once in that entire series(at the Oval during the Hayden-Langer partnernship) did Australia have the advantage. It didnt help that the conditions went so overly against them after that either.

Top_Cat said:
If luck played it's part, then England may have had some with the bat but I don't think they had more than the Aussies. With the ball, it was a different story; Australia bowled too many no-balls, dropped too many catches and England's bowling unit was just outstanding. Overall, they were just too good and probably would have won even if McGrath hadn't been injured or at least pushed the Aussies almost as hard.
I think if we did a count, i wouldnt be surprised if England bowled just as many, if not more no balls than Australia. The fact that Australia got wickets off them while England didnt can surely only be put down as luck. The dropped catches was an issue yes, and it does go down to the lack of discipline in the team, but one cannot exactly go on to credit England for playing brilliantly when someone is dropped 3 times on his way to a match and series saving 158. Or for that matter someone being dropped and bowled of a no ball to eventually go on and get 166.

Top_Cat said:
England had 5 bowlers who, when they weren't taking wickets, were at least contributing and bowling in pairs. The outstanding bowler in the English side changed every Test;

1st Test; Harmi
2nd Test; Jones
3rd Test; (to a lesser extent) Giles and Jones.
4th Test; Hoggard
5th Test; Flintoff.

Plus, you had Freddie who took 30+ wickets and was great value in all bar the first Test.
Undoubtedly the England attack was brilliant. But then again when you look back at it, 2 bowlers had the series of their careers in the very same series. Whether that can be put down as fortunate is debateable, but i for one can guarantee that Flintoff will probably never bowl anywhere near as well as he bowled that series. And i find it incredibly ironic that since the Ashes Flintoff hasnt reverse swung a ball to any sort of extent to match the way he was doing it in the Ashes. and its not like he was bending it around before that summer either.

Top_Cat said:
Australia had two outstanding bowlers (Warne and McGrath), one who veered from destructive to woeful (Lee), one who was lacking spark (Kasper), one who was just woeful (Dizzy) and one erratic newbie (Tait).
i think the main concern was their bowling. If Mcgrath, Gillespie and Kaspa bowled in the way in which we know they can, things would have been completely different. Fact was that the Australian batsman were always even in that series in a class above Englands. However considering that they were up against Hoggard, Harmison, Freddie and Jones and while Englands were up against Warne, Warne, Lee and Warne made it a rather unfair battle.
More importantly the fact that England batted first 4 times in that series also favored them significantly. They got the best of the pitch, the best of the conditions and eventually the better of the bowlers.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Top_Cat said:
Kasper maybe (and even in the Ashes was straight at least) but Dizzy had been bowling pap for some time. It just took a batting line-up of the quality of England's to expose him. He didn't so much lose form as have his true form revealed. Australia demolished both NZ and Pakistan in the home series and he barely took a pole. The warning signs were definitely there earlier than Lords.
He was inconsistent before the Ashes yes. Infact i remember bringing it up in a thread as a possible weakness before the Ashes. However do you honestly think his bowling was anywhere near as poor as it was during the Ashes? He may have been inconsistent in those 2 series, but he still manage to put in a few good performances- his 3/38 won the game for Australia against NZ. And even while that was happening he was still performing in ODIs at the time, during the VB series and in NZ. One cannot draw a decent comparison to the forlorn figure that was getting whooped around by the likes of Aftab Ahmad & Mohammad Ashraful in the natwest series.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Autobahn said:
But in the end doesn't everyone aim for bowlers to have height and/or pace at international level?

I mean the majority of sucessful bowlers today have either one or both.
I think that is the general rule although there are always exceptions. But in general to be a successful bowler in all conditions, you generally have to have one or the other or both preferably.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
tooextracool said:
The odds before the series the both Gillespie and Kasparowicz would lose form in the manner in which they did would have been very slim.
Some would argue that Gillespie had already lost form by that point.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
marc71178 said:
Some would argue that Gillespie had already lost form by that point.
so before the summer you would have predicted or even considered the idea that gillespie would end up with 3 wickets at 100 a piece in the Ashes?
 

Legglancer

State Regular
Errr ... I remember Marc##### saying Jayasuriya is "over the hill" and still playing on the back of his past glories ....... about 2 years ago :laugh:

Where is Scaly ? 8-)
 

Neil Pickup

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Legglancer said:
Errr ... I remember Marc##### saying Jayasuriya is "over the hill" and still playing on the back of his past glories ....... about 2 years ago :laugh:

Where is Scaly ? 8-)
One year, not two. here
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Did England really make the Aussies 'pay for their luck'? I mean every time England had the advantage in that series they threw it away just as quickly. They scored 407 at Edgbaston but at the end of the day they were at least 100 short given the pitch, given the bowling and given the start. When they had the aussies dead and buried at the end of day 4, they miraculously let them back into the game by bowling far too short and managed to create the game of the decade out of one that they should have cake walked through.
Can't argue with that, really. That pitch was a 500+ pitch for sure and someone should have gotten a ton but that has to be tempered with the fact that they were playing the best side in the world and some for of a fightback is inevitable. The Aussies aren't just going to drop their heads and concede 600; someone like Warne (as he did) is going to come to the party eventually.

I think if australia were to have batted first in any of the last 4 test matches and managed to get runs on the board(even 350 odd) things would have been very different. The difference between Australia and England(and indeed number 1 and number 2) is that when the Aussies have the advantage they very seldom tend to lose it. Only once in that entire series(at the Oval during the Hayden-Langer partnernship) did Australia have the advantage. It didnt help that the conditions went so overly against them after that either.
Again, this is probably true. I don't think Australia would have totally dominated England had they batted first at least once but winning the toss so many times (and getting it handed to them once) was a distinct advantage. Part of me, however, reckons England would still have been quite competitive, though.

I think if we did a count, i wouldnt be surprised if England bowled just as many, if not more no balls than Australia. The fact that Australia got wickets off them while England didnt can surely only be put down as luck.
I know what you're saying but when you bowl so many no-balls which get 'wickets' as Australia did, then part of me thinks you deserve to be pummelled. :D

The dropped catches was an issue yes, and it does go down to the lack of discipline in the team, but one cannot exactly go on to credit England for playing brilliantly when someone is dropped 3 times on his way to a match and series saving 158. Or for that matter someone being dropped and bowled of a no ball to eventually go on and get 166.
No, you can't credit England with the initial drops that's true. What you can do, however, is credit both KP and Vaughan for realising that it was their day, that they'd had some luck (in the case of KP, quite a bit) and that they went on with it. Without both their innings', England's totals would have been quite poor and once he got past 50, KP's knock was really something special.

Undoubtedly the England attack was brilliant. But then again when you look back at it, 2 bowlers had the series of their careers in the very same series. Whether that can be put down as fortunate is debateable, but i for one can guarantee that Flintoff will probably never bowl anywhere near as well as he bowled that series. And i find it incredibly ironic that since the Ashes Flintoff hasnt reverse swung a ball to any sort of extent to match the way he was doing it in the Ashes. and its not like he was bending it around before that summer either
Or bowling consistently 90+ either, for that matter. Oh, I'm not denying that we're seeing some regression back to the mean with England right now and that a couple of players played out of their skins for sure. But the same thing happened to the Aussies after beating the WI in 1995; some poor performances followed especially away from home. England, albeit with many more injuries, are suffering from an Ashes hangover, which I mooted as a distinct possibility right after the Ashes and was nigh-on ridiculed for it. :D I knew it was going to happen and it had nothing to do with England's ability or otherwise; it happens to every team.

i think the main concern was their bowling. If Mcgrath, Gillespie and Kaspa bowled in the way in which we know they can, things would have been completely different. Fact was that the Australian batsman were always even in that series in a class above Englands. However considering that they were up against Hoggard, Harmison, Freddie and Jones and while Englands were up against Warne, Warne, Lee and Warne made it a rather unfair battle.
More importantly the fact that England batted first 4 times in that series also favored them significantly. They got the best of the pitch, the best of the conditions and eventually the better of the bowlers.
Ridiculous. It was Warne, Warne, Warne, Warne, Warne......................and Lee. :)

Yes Australia were facing an attack which was in good nick, indeed. But, although I agree the bowling was what ultimately separated the two teams, England's batters also had a greater attacking intent. They seemed to have been given the freedom to play shots and it paid dividends. Plus, just about every English plan seemed to come off. When a wicket was needed, a wicket happened. It was uncanny. That was a combination of great planning (the bowling and field plans to Hayden, Ponting, Martyn and Gilchrist were outstanding all series) and good luck (that what they planned actually came off).

I lost count of how many times the commentators would say something like "OKay well Freddie has o pitch the ball in area x for Martyn with this field", Freddie would hit area x and boom, wicket. England's plans were good, execution excellent but finishing was poor.

However do you honestly think his bowling was anywhere near as poor as it was during the Ashes?
Maybe not QUITE as poor but it wasn't far off and once he was exposed, it quickly unravelled. I was tearing my hair out at how many times Dizzy would angle the ball in at middle-and-leg and it'd hit the mid-wicket fence like a shot. Eventually, England's batsmen were treating him with contempt; it was clear they didn't rate him as a threat at all.
 

Top