***Official*** South Africa v West Indies

[Will Scarlet]

Yes, once again Lara shows why he's the best batsman in the world. Magnificant innings with the ship sinking around him - as usual.

 

[honestbharani]

Is it just me or do the Windies matches seem a little too predictable? The dismal start, the rescue operation of Lara and Chanders, the middle order collapse (Chanders and Hinds) and then another little partnership and then, the inevitable fall of Lara.... If only Lara can talk to Bevan and work out the art of remaining unbeaten.........

 

[Adamc]

Lara's most recent innings' in the Caribbean:

176, 4, 196, 120, 53, 400*

949 runs @ 189.8.

 

[shaka]

they finally sorted out cricinfo, it is stumps score available now.

 

[mavric41]

Yes, once again Lara shows why he's the best batsman in the world. Magnificant innings with the ship sinking around him - as usual.

Yes, unfortunately when he's in form the rest of the team seems to forget how to bat. Its such a difference from the first test.

 

[Adamc]

Yes, unfortunately when he's in form the rest of the team seems to forget how to bat. Its such a difference from the first test.

That's actually alarmingly true... I just had a look at all the matches in which Lara scored 150+, and compared Lara's score against the team score. In those innings (16 of them, including this match), Lara scored a total of 3471 runs, against a team total of 7593: 45.71% of the total team score.
The 'best' score as a percentage of team total was his 375 out of a total of 5/593 (63.24%), though that was an incomplete innings so the results are a bit skewed. The highest percentage in a completed innings was 56.67%, when he scored 221 out of 390 in Sri Lanka. Moreover, the average percentage of team runs in innings of 150+ was 46.60%.

Compare that to Tendulkar for example, who has a similar number of 150+ scores (15). In those 15 innings he has scored 2822 out of a team total of 7974: 35.39%. His highest percentage in a completed innings was 47.15% (248* out of 526 v Bangladesh), and the average percentage of team runs in an innings was 36.14%, again substantially less than Lara.

Not trying to start a Lara v Tendulkar again, just reiterating the alarming extent to which Lara dominates his batting lineup.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Compare that to Tendulkar for example, who has a similar number of 150+ scores (15). In those 15 innings he has scored 2822 out of a team total of 7974: 35.39%. His highest percentage in a completed innings was 47.15% (248* out of 526 v Bangladesh), and the average percentage of team runs in an innings was 36.14%, again substantially less than Lara.

The comparison with S. Waugh, who played in a genuinely consistent batting lineup that did not rely on him for most of his career, is even more remarkable. Waugh had 14 150+ scores (with one against all 9 test nations, the only player to do that). In those 14 innings, he scored 2301 runs out of a team total of 7394 - 31.12%. His highest percentage of a team score when scoring 150+ is just 40.61%, against the West Indies in 1999.

The average 150+ score and the average team total in those games:
Lara/West Indies: 216.94/474.96
Tendulkar/India: 188.13/531.6
Waugh/Australia: 164.36/528.14

 

[sledger]

Yes, unfortunately when he's in form the rest of the team seems to forget how to bat. Its such a difference from the first test.

one has to ask the question, despite the fact that he is a great great player and the best batsman in the world, is his presence a negative one on the rest of the west indies side?
does his inclusion in the side do more harm than good?

 

[Steulen]

But what would that mean? Surely it's the other guys that fail when Lara's around, so they should be the ones under scrutiny.

 

[sledger]

im not proposing that anyone is under scrutiny, least of all lara, his presence just makes the rest of the side play poorer, its a huge problem really.

 

[Adamc]

im not proposing that anyone is under scrutiny, least of all lara, his presence just makes the rest of the side play poorer, its a huge problem really.

I can assure you that, had Lara not been around for the last 15 years, West Indies cricket would be in much, much, much deeper strife than it is now.

 

[sledger]

thats not my point at all, i completely agree with you, its just that in the current state the team always seem to fail when lara is about and yet when he is absent they are a resounding sucess..... its just raises the question, is he more trouble than hes worth???

i dont personally believe that theory btw....just intrested to see what others think.

 

[Adamc]

thats not my point at all, i completely agree with you, its just that in the current state the team always seem to fail when lara is about and yet when he is absent they are a resounding sucess..... its just raises the question, is he more trouble than hes worth???

i dont personally believe that theory btw....just intrested to see what others think.

What basis do you have for stating that though? The only recent example of the team playing well in Lara's absence is the 1st Test of this series. Before that, the last time Lara missed a Test (I think) was when the WI played Pakistan in the UAE in 2002. They got thrashed 2-0. So...

And look what happens when they play one-dayers without Lara.

 

[sledger]

2-0 is not a thrashing, and regardless, the first test against SA was the closet they have come to winning a test againts a quality side for a very very long time now, in fact it might even be the first time they havent lost. When was the last time they won a test that wasnt against bangladesh out o f intrest ?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Is it just me or do the Windies matches seem a little too predictable? The dismal start, the rescue operation of Lara and Chanders, the middle order collapse (Chanders and Hinds) and then another little partnership and then, the inevitable fall of Lara.... If only Lara can talk to Bevan and work out the art of remaining unbeaten.........

The man scored 176 runs! What more do you want from him? Bevan never scored so many, so I dare say he was never unbeaten on 176.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Yes, unfortunately when he's in form the rest of the team seems to forget how to bat. Its such a difference from the first test.

Though only 2 batsman were really in form in the first match. They just accounted for over 400 of the runs. One of those batsmen never forgets how to bat (unless he's captain).

 

[Adamc]

2-0 is not a thrashing, and regardless, the first test against SA was the closet they have come to winning a test againts a quality side for a very very long time now, in fact it might even be the first time they havent lost. When was the last time they won a test that wasnt against bangladesh out o f intrest ?

2-0 is a thrashing when it was a two-Test series, and when both wins were highly convincing. Regarding the 1st Test against South Africa, it is an extremely tenuous argument to say that because the West Indies performed well in one Test in which Lara was not present, they will do so in all or most Tests. As I said before, there is simply no other evidence to suggest that Lara's presence has a negative impact on the West Indies' performance; if you beg to differ, please provide some evidence.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

2-0 is not a thrashing, and regardless, the first test against SA was the closet they have come to winning a test againts a quality side for a very very long time now, in fact it might even be the first time they havent lost. When was the last time they won a test that wasnt against bangladesh out o f intrest ?

Well the West Indies hasn't taken 20 wickets against a side rated higher than it in 14 Test matches. I think that's a fair indication. The last Test win other than Bangladesh would be against Zimbabwe.

Before that, Sri Lanka. Before that, Australia.

 

[sledger]

i dont really believe it myself, its just what some have been saying, il have a look for some evidence for this theory if you like...but later though....im at school now, and yes as mxy says fair play to te guy he scored a magnificent innings yesterday, too bad that the rest of the top order batsman (not including chanderpaul) disgraced themselves.

 

[Adamc]

2-0 is not a thrashing, and regardless, the first test against SA was the closet they have come to winning a test againts a quality side for a very very long time now, in fact it might even be the first time they havent lost. When was the last time they won a test that wasnt against bangladesh out o f intrest ?

I would say also that they were closer to winning this match than they were the 1st Test.