***Official*** South Africa in England

[tooextracool]

Have to give credit to Colly. Has really played a fighting knock in a (probably) losing cause. Would love to see (& obviously England despeartely need) him to go on to the ton now.

Get to see what Ambrose is made of too. He owes the selectors' faith some runs here.

Does Ambrose have a good wicket keeping record in domestic cricket? Looks nothing other than an ordinary keeper at the international level, certainly has let a lot of byes get away already this innings.

 

[tooextracool]

Gee our batting doesn't get any better, does it. Only caught glimpses this afternoon, but Cook, Vaughan & Bell all need public floggings for their dismissals, and the KP throws it away when SA were there for the taking.

Havent really had a good look at Bell's dismissal but Cook's dismissal was an absolute joke. As Boycott mentioned, he pulled a ball that he could have cut for 4. Personally, the player that deserves the greatest flogging is KP. Honestly, atrocious stuff from him. I could care less about those that say that we wouldnt be in the situation if this wasnt for KP. Sorry, but its not like hes scoring 94s every game. If you dont score big when you get in in this sort of situation then you do deserve a lot of blame. Ive always said that players that get 50s deserve to be criticised more than players that dont get off the mark because throwing it away is a lot worse than getting out before you get in.

I think Vaughan was a little unfortunate, given that he hit the ball really really low above the ground and 99/100 times would have seen that not gone to hand but gone for 4.

 

[Prince EWS]

Look, Im a fairly big Collingwood fan and I dont think Ive ever suggested dropping him since he first settled into the side, but I feel that after already dropping Collingwood the English selectors had no way out here, but to drop him if he failed.

However, I dont agree with your logic of, persisting with players because they are 'proven'. Players dont always stay proven you know. To stick with players no matter what is likely to allow any batsman to settle into a comfort zone, and not try to improve because he is in a flexible coccoon by being guaranteed a place in the side irrespective of performance. There are a number of cases of players, particularly batters, that have scored runs against bowling attacks around the world and then just lost it thereafter. Michael Vaughan is a classic example (how many would have called him unproven in 2002/03?). Average players do have primes that inflate their ability, before they go back to being mediocre thereafter. I guess now we can finally understand exactly why Vaughan has such a ordinary FC record, its because he wasnt very good ITFP. His test batting average is slowly regressing to parity with his FC average and hes a classic example of a player who had an extended peak run of form before returning to the mediocrity that best defines the majority of his career.

Ntini is another example. Very mediocre bowler for the most part of his career and couldnt take a wicket away from home. Even he managed to have a period where he went from being ordinary to world class and has now returned to his original level of mediocrity.

Obviously proven players decline. I admitted as much before. However, very few people have actually suggested Collingwood had declined; merely that he was "out of form". That's not justification for dropping the guy IMO.

Vaughan is a different story. I'm a massive fan but he has clearly declined from where I sit (or, quite possibly, he was just in excellent form for an long period despite being pretty average, as you suggested). If he wasn't captain I'd be for his dropping and I'll be for it regardless if he fails for the rest of the series.

 

[superkingdave]

Havent really had a good look at Bell's dismissal but Cook's dismissal was an absolute joke. As Boycott mentioned, he pulled a ball that he could have cut for 4. Personally, the player that deserves the greatest flogging is KP. Honestly, atrocious stuff from him. I could care less about those that say that we wouldnt be in the situation if this wasnt for KP. Sorry, but its not like hes scoring 94s every game. If you dont score big when you get in in this sort of situation then you do deserve a lot of blame. Ive always said that players that get 50s deserve to be criticised more than players that dont get off the mark because throwing it away is a lot worse than getting out before you get in.

I think Vaughan was a little unfortunate, given that he hit the ball really really low above the ground and 99/100 times would have seen that not gone to hand but gone for 4.

I've not seen Cook's second innings dismissal but from your description it sounds like the same situation he got away with in the first innings when he tried to pull a ball wide outside off stump and it went one bounce to gully/point. Is that correct?

 

[tooextracool]

I've not seen Cook's second innings dismissal but from your description it sounds like the same situation he got away with in the first innings when he tried to pull a ball wide outside off stump and it went one bounce to gully/point. Is that correct?

Similar, yes. However, I think that was bowled from around the wicket, which is always easier to play given that is going in the same direction as where you intend to hit the ball. This one on the other hand was bowled from over the wicket and was wider, going wider still. It was simply a poor piece of judgement from Cook, who has clearly decided (and hes not the only one) that anything short on this pitch and he is going to go after it. South Africa repeatedly fed him with short deliveries, for reasons Im not entirely sure, in the first innings and rather than his 76 being a decent innings it was just shocking bowling.

 

[Stapel]

How big should the lead be, to make the odss 50/50? About 250? What are the Edgbaston 4th innings statistics?

 

[fredfertang]

There has been some unfair criticism of KP – KP does as KP is and that’s why he got selected in the first place – I’d rather watch him score 94 in 3 hours and get out to a piece of what was admittedly sheer lunacy than bat like Chris Tavare for three hours before nicking an unplayable one for 20

 

[howardj]

Can't believe the criticism of KP. He is an absolute bluechip batsman. He is what he is (an attacking gun with a plus 50 average) and you take the rough with the smooth.

 

[Stapel]

There has been some unfair criticism of KP – KP does as KP is and that’s why he got selected in the first place – I’d rather watch him score 94 in 3 hours and get out to a piece of what was admittedly sheer lunacy than bat like Chris Tavare for three hours before nicking an unplayable one for 20

I fully agree. Pietersen's lunacy is what brings him big scores.

 

[howardj]

How big should the lead be, to make the odss 50/50? About 250? What are the Edgbaston 4th innings statistics?

Mate, I think they need, at a minimum, a 280 run lead.

 

[fredfertang]

Mate, I think they need, at a minimum, a 280 run lead.

I'm not so sure - with Freddie champing at the bit and, hopefully, the real Burnley Express
facing them I reckon we will see a touch of the Kim Hughes about Smith's lot later today

The problem is getting Anderson's head right - I reckon a bouncer on the helmet from that cretin Nel should do the job nicely

 

[tooextracool]

How big should the lead be, to make the odss 50/50? About 250? What are the Edgbaston 4th innings statistics?

According to cricinfo, no team has ever chased over 208 at Edgbaston.

 

[tooextracool]

I fully agree. Pietersen's lunacy is what brings him big scores.

Does it? Because it hasnt been doing so over the last year or so.

 

[aussie tragic]

According to cricinfo, no team has ever chased over 208 at Edgbaston.

That would be when Eng made 3-211 against NZ in 1999...

...although Australia did make 279 chasing 282 in 2005

 

[howardj]

According to cricinfo, no team has ever chased over 208 at Edgbaston.

I always find those 'successful record chase' stats to be very misleading.

Such a stat doesn't take into account a side that makes 208+ and draws or loses a game, or a side that scores 1 for 200 and wins.

 

[Dissector]

I believe this is a newly laid pitch which deteroriates much less than previously so history isn't much of a guide. We will just have to wait and see what batting conditions are like in the last innings.

 

[tooextracool]

I always find those 'successful record chase' stats to be very misleading.

Such a stat doesn't take into account a side that makes 208+ and draws or loses a game, or a side that scores 1 for 200 and wins.

True, but I think theres always been something in the conditions at Edgbaston if you can swing the ball. It will be interesting to see how much swing the England bowlers can generate when they come out as even though SA havent got much out of the wicket, they only really have one out and out swing bowler. I think a lead over 300 and England will be favorites but 250 and upwards will be a tricky run chase as long as England bowl somewhat competently.

 

[tooextracool]

I think Edgbaston and Old Trafford are 2 grounds in England that you can always count on there being something in the pitch or in the air to assist the bowlers. OT I have always believed is up with producing the best and most sporting pitches in the world.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Fourth Innings at Edgbaston

 

[Richard]

He's said it ad nausium.

Have I?

He'd say it before every Test but for the repetitive nature of it. Richard to confirm, but if he was selecting the team for this Test, Shah would be in for Collingwood.

I think you (and you'd certainly not be the first) may confuse me saying "I don't think Collingwood is Test-class" with "I'd drop him from the team this minute". I probably would have picked Shah ahead of Collingwood for this Test but even here, I didn't have all that many qualms about the selectors picking him, I think Gelman was more critical of it than I was.

Collingwood has had an irrefutable case for Test selection in the last 3 years and I think he had a not-unfair case for selection here. Much as you may not rate a player, you can't drop him as long as he continues to perform. At least, I don't feel I could.