***Official*** South Africa in England

[Uppercut]

I think you are exaggerating the quality of this SA batting card. No matter what way you look at it, there is no hiding from the fact that Devilliers and Prince scored the bulk of the runs with little to no contribution from everyone else. Admittedly Prince has been very impressive, I am surprised that someone with a fairly good technique and temperament has such a ordinary record tbh. However, if any of the next 2 pitches offer anything for the bowlers, past experience would suggest that Smith wont score a run against Anderson or Flintoff. McKenzie has done well but hes still unproven, Amla and Boucher have both looked unconvincing all series thus far and Kallis is struggling for form. I know it doesnt mean much now, but England should have had SA at 101/4 at the end of day 1 which was admirable given that they got the worst of the batting conditions.
SA have applied themselves fairly well with the bat thus far, but I am still far from convinced that if England manage to prepare a decent pitch or serve up swing friendly conditions that SA wont be put to the sword especially if England actually pick some of their good bowlers.

Yeah, i was quite deliberately overplaying the strength of their batting. But i'm comparing them to England's batting, on current form, only Pietersen and arguably Strauss would make the South African lineup. Amla looks out of touch, but unlike Vaughan, he still looks like a batsman.
England will put SA to the sword only if they prepare a big turning pitch IMO. If the ball swings for all five days, SA have the bowlers to exploit that even moreso than England and their batsmen seem to have a better idea of how to play it too. There's no Englishman as effective with the swinging ball as Dale Steyn at the moment.

 

[popepouri]

Amla and Boucher have both looked unconvincing

Amla looks out of touch

http://stats.cricinfo.com/engvrsa/e...st_runs_career.html?class=4;id=3240;type=tour

 

[Richard]

Can't believe all these people putting forward Jones's name for the next Test. He's barely played any cricket since the Ashes and Worcestershire are still having to rest him for many of their one-day games to ensure he doesn't fall apart. He's a decent shout for a winter tour slot, but only if he can come through the end of the season injury-free.

I reckon Broad will hang onto his place and Sidebottom will come in for Pattinson. Only the keeper's slot is then up for grabs, so we'll have to see who else is on the merry-go-round.

If Broad were to stay in the team and Ambrose to be dropped, that'd be yet another piece of insanity to add to the ever-growing recent collection.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Hit a 70-odd in a Pro40 over the weekend, so hopefully has turned a corner.

But you're right tho, yeah. If the selectors are retaining any sense of a pecking order (& one has one's doubts) Owais really should get at least the next two tests. Unfortunately his off-spin is worse than KP's (by a bit too) so I can see that counting against him. Not that it should, but that's just the way I can see Dusty & co's minds working.

The fact that he's awful in the field and his mental strengths are about as much use as Ian Bell's are but without the redeeming features of youth and lots of ability should be what counts against him.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Cook
Strauss
Vaughan
KP
Bell
Collingwood
Ambrose
Flintoff
Sidebottom
Jones
Anderson

Prior as a specialist number 6 batsman anyone? Just an idea.

You had to go and spoil it didn't you.

 

[Uppercut]

http://stats.cricinfo.com/engvrsa/e...st_runs_career.html?class=4;id=3240;type=tour

He definitely looks a bit out of touch. He's still scoring runs, part due to luck and part due to character, so all credit to him. But he doesn't look in great nick.

 

[nexxus]

He's always looked like that. Very poor starter, but when he's in, he's hard to shift. He likes batting with Kallis, they've ground some teams into dust over the last year.

It's a bit amusing to read that the SA batting lineup isn't all that after all but Kallis & Boucher in the top 7 have scored tons already. Especially the way they've played over the last year. I was very nervous about our tail, but Morkel adds some solidity at least, and it's put the onus firmly on the batsmen to score our runs. The likes of McKensie, Amla & AB have certainly upped their games.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

The topic is overdone, but I thought I'd mention this. I saw an article on CricInfo titled "Darren who?" and I literally could not think of who they were talking about. I couldn't think of anyone in either team, off the bat, with the first name Darren. And this is a day after the Test finished and 5 days after he debuted. That's how anonymous Pattinson is.

 

[The Baconator]

Y'never know, they could be bringing back Goughy.

 

[Uppercut]

He's always looked like that. Very poor starter, but when he's in, he's hard to shift. He likes batting with Kallis, they've ground some teams into dust over the last year.

It's a bit amusing to read that the SA batting lineup isn't all that after all but Kallis & Boucher in the top 7 have scored tons already. Especially the way they've played over the last year. I was very nervous about our tail, but Morkel adds some solidity at least, and it's put the onus firmly on the batsmen to score our runs. The likes of McKensie, Amla & AB have certainly upped their games.

Nah i saw Amla in India playing spin and he looked in great touch, cutting off the back foot and using his wrists to great effect. At the moment he looks a bit uncomfortable, seems to play and miss a lot, doesn't deal well with the short ball but somehow battles through. Ah well, nothing wrong with being a lucky batsman.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Y'never know, they could be bringing back Goughy.

As a fan of the man, I'd prefer if he finished his career averaging less than 30.

 

[tooextracool]

In the home series for sure but Lee was as good as Warne there and it was Lee and Clark who did the damage in the return series in SA. As I said, good bowling absolutely played its part but England didn't bowl poorly in this Test either.

The difference is, though, that guys like Prince would get beaten or play a false shot but then get back to what they were doing because they weren't put under any pressure to score by, say, a huge total. The Aussie batsmen did that job against SA so the Saffies knew that even though a few of them were batting quite well, the response was going to be strong so batting well wasn't just desirable, it was absolutely crucial. They knew they couldn't just play Warne/McGrath/Lee/Clark out and seemed to feel the pressure to go after them. The England batting line-up doesn't install the same sort of fear-of-failure in them that the Aussie bats do.

Yes that is true. But as I mentioned, that has been a problem with England for years now. Consistency has simply evaporated from the side ever since we lost Thorpe and Tresco. How many of our players are capable of scoring big runs or batting long periods or time? Even in the last test match, Flintoff and Ambrose applied themselves brilliantly for the good part of 3 hours and then threw it all away with a couple of poor strokes whilst Prince and ABD managed to do it for hours together. England's players simply get in and throw it away all to often and you only have to look at the number of players who got starts at Headingly and didnt go on to convert them into 100s to realize that. The problem is that I dont see an imminent solution, hence fixing the bowling attack should be the priority.

More attacking bowlers would help, sure. I maintain, though, that without the scores to back up the bowling unit, the team will continue to struggle.

Maybe, but they will always be competitive. This England batting lineup is no better than the one that one the Ashes in 2005. Heck 5 out of 7 of the current batsmen were part of the batting lineup from 2005. I am a firm believer that bowlers win test matches while batsmen save them and if our bowling attack were to fire in the manner that it did in the Ashes in 2005 and is consistently superior to SA's own this series they still have good odds of winning.

 

[tooextracool]

My point is, point the finger at all the other batsman that barring Bell who can build a partnership with KP, the rest of the batting lineup need a shakeup. You cannot expect KP to carry the bulk of the batting while the rest of the side just rides his success at the crease when he comes off. Even more embarrassing to damn him considering he's not English.

and yet who can be dropped? Strauss is coming off a good series against NZ, Cook just scored 60 and England have invested far too much in him to let him go now, Vaughan(who probably should be the first one to go from the side) is captain and therefore undroppable, KP is arguably the best batsman in the side and Bell is coming off a 199. The only batsman who could have been dropped has already been dropped.

 

[Uppercut]

Maybe, but they will always be competitive. This England batting lineup is no better than the one that one the Ashes in 2005. Heck 5 out of 7 of the current batsmen were part of the batting lineup from 2005. I am a firm believer that bowlers win test matches while batsmen save them and if our bowling attack were to fire in the manner that it did in the Ashes in 2005 and is consistently superior to SA's own this series they still have good odds of winning.

Pretty huge If. I can't see England consistently bowling better than SA, except Panesar. Maybe in three or four innings out of eight if they pick the right players. But not consistently, because this is a SA attack of real quality. The England attack isn't as good as the one of 2005, whether they pick the out-of-sorts veterans from then or try to replace them.

 

[Uppercut]

and yet who can be dropped? Strauss is coming off a good series against NZ, Cook just scored 60 and England have invested far too much in him to let him go now, Vaughan(who probably should be the first one to go from the side) is captain and therefore undroppable, KP is arguably the best batsman in the side and Bell is coming off a 199. The only batsman who could have been dropped has already been dropped.

Yup, and not only that, but there's no obvious replacement for any of them, because Owais Shah is ****.

 

[tooextracool]

Indeed. It's not like he was out swishing at one outside off. I thought it far more a case of excellent bowling to remove a batsman who was looking very dangerous.

England were never, ever going to save that Test. Their only chance, and it was a miniscule one, was to win.

I think KP gets away with a lot less slack than he should just because of his reputation. I dont see why he should be exempt from any criticism. Ok so hes played some great innings for England in the past and hes well deserving of his place in the side but he doesnt come close to living up to his reputation as a player nor does he perform significantly better than the rest of the England lineup. Since last summer, hes played 19 innings and only made noteworthy contributions (a 50+ score) in 3 innings. That belies any level of greatness that people expect him to achieve and his average exaggerates some of his most recent performances. The Ashes only come around once every year and a half and if Pietersen cant find the motivation to score runs against the 7 other teams around the world then he really needs a talking over especially when he gets out playing as embarassingly as he did in the first innings of the 2nd test.

 

[tooextracool]

Yes, the batting looks weak, but the top seven will need to do their job properly and anyway, perhaps Anderson has the making of being a decent number eight or nine, rather than the rabbit of his early years..

I dont think Anderson ever looked like a rabbit. If anything he was batting at least one place too low at number 11. Anderson has always been a somewhat competent tailender with a decent defensive technique. Theres a reason why he spent the vast majority of his earlier career being not out and its not just because of the fact that he batted at number 11.

 

[Uppercut]

I think KP gets away with a lot less slack than he should just because of his reputation. I dont see why he should be exempt from any criticism. Ok so hes played some great innings for England in the past and hes well deserving of his place in the side but he doesnt come close to living up to his reputation as a player nor does he perform significantly better than the rest of the England lineup. Since last summer, hes played 19 innings and only made noteworthy contributions (a 50+ score) in 3 innings. That belies any level of greatness that people expect him to achieve and his average exaggerates some of his most recent performances. The Ashes only come around once every year and a half and if Pietersen cant find the motivation to score runs against the 7 other teams around the world then he really needs a talking over especially when he gets out playing as embarassingly as he did in the first innings of the 2nd test.

I agree with a lot of that. But it's not relevant for this innings. People looked at his score, 13 off five and thought "hey, irresponsible KP throws his wicket away recklessly again". Really he played excellent shots off his first four deliveries then was caught behind playing a defensive stroke to a very good ball. It doesn't give us much to complain about, but it's what happened.

 

[Langeveldt]

The topic is overdone, but I thought I'd mention this. I saw an article on CricInfo titled "Darren who?" and I literally could not think of who they were talking about. I couldn't think of anyone in either team, off the bat, with the first name Darren. And this is a day after the Test finished and 5 days after he debuted. That's how anonymous Pattinson is.

He's the first cricketer who has represented England or South Africa in the last, say 15 years, who I have never heard of.. Couldn't tell you what county he represented or anything.. And I very much that will ever happen again as long as I follow cricket..

 

[Langeveldt]

I think KP gets away with a lot less slack than he should just because of his reputation. I dont see why he should be exempt from any criticism. Ok so hes played some great innings for England in the past and hes well deserving of his place in the side but he doesnt come close to living up to his reputation as a player nor does he perform significantly better than the rest of the England lineup. Since last summer, hes played 19 innings and only made noteworthy contributions (a 50+ score) in 3 innings. That belies any level of greatness that people expect him to achieve and his average exaggerates some of his most recent performances. The Ashes only come around once every year and a half and if Pietersen cant find the motivation to score runs against the 7 other teams around the world then he really needs a talking over especially when he gets out playing as embarassingly as he did in the first innings of the 2nd test.

I'm sure Pietersen doesn't need motivating to score runs against South Africa