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*Official* South Africa in England Thread

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
The Argonaut said:
It's hard to know where to even start. Will wholesale changes work. The bowlers must be found accountable for the lion's share of problems however they must persist with Anderson. He's young and the experience will be good for him in the long run. Gough is finished, Harmison questionable and Giles also questionable.

I just can't believe what I've seen on the scoreboards. Maybe more credit should be given to the South Africans who have batted well. I really thought England would give them a good run.
Wholesale changes are inevitable - although not necessarily from a personnel standpoint.

It's sad about Goughie - he was the inspiration of the English bowling attack and others sparked off him. Sorry to say that injuries have taken their toll.

Anderson is green and is nowhere near the finished article - the run-up is a real worry, though. Needs work in the next week.

Giles - steadily improved in the two tests with the ball, hung his bat out to dry for both dismissals. Could well do with combining his net practice with Anderson - lock the pair up until Anderson can get off the pitch and Giles goes back to whacking stuff a foot outside off.

Harmison - tried his guts out as always, but I wish Devon Malcolm was 15 years younger (or Willis or John Snow or Fred Trueman or....). He isn't, Jones isn't fit either so Harmy it is - for now at least.

After the first two days at Lord's, Freddie was out, cast to the wolves, never to return (for a bit anyway). What happened, I don't know, but instead of the head dropping onto his chest some remarkable change occurred - the chest pumped out, the head came up and he bowled with real character. With 3 dollies dropped off his bowling plus a couple of "Yours"es through the slips, it's not a huge leap of the imagination to see Flintoff's name on the honours board with a 'five-for'. As for his batting - the ineptitude and brainache of Thursday became a Botham-esque virtuoso performance yesterday. More to the point, in the early point of his innings, he resisted the hook and only really cut loose later. A 10/10 performance.

The batting - there will definitely be calls for wholesale changes but the thing that was missing in this game from an English batting perspective wasn't ability - it was discipline. Batsmen hate it if they are not laying bat on ball (obvious) so they end up having a waft. I suggest that every English batsman watch the two innings played by Graeme Smith - not for the balls he hits but for the ones he doesn't - and learn very quickly.

Yesterday, those small lapses in concentration haunted England for a second time in the match - and t was arguably worse than the first innings. No, not the performance - that was an improvement - but the aggressive wafts returned after the batsmen had become established almost to a point of dominance.

So - who's in, who's out?

Read for Stewart will happen for sure - the only point is, when? I was hoping for sentiment's sake that it would be after The Oval, but I reckon the sooner the better.

Nasser? The wild yahoo of the first innings was followed by the wild yahoo of the second. In between was a grassed dolly and an innings of exceptional character - until the all-too-familiar (over the last few days) hook. May make way for Thorpe (if his back doesn't hurt, his toenails don't need cutting, he doesn't get a bit of sunburn this week or his alarm clock goes off). May get one more go, though.

McGrath has played his last test this year, for sure. Ed Smith's form warrants a go now, not against Bangladesh. If Hussain stays in the side for Trent Bridge, an untried Smith is a better option than 'Club before country'.

Gough - sorry. Go back to your county, take some wickets and come back next year. James Kirtley gets my vote.

So that's 3 definite changes, a possibility of a couple of others and a huge change in approach by the batters. As Otto would say "Don't choke don't choke don't choke - Ohhh. I choked!"
 

hourn

U19 Cricketer
eddie,

do you consider both Hussain and Stewart in the firing line?? I thought they'd be two of the guys who'd be safe for the remainder of this season, but I doubt either (we know Stewart won't be) will be there next year.......

From what i can gather, Ed Smith has to get a run and that would be most probably for McGrath.
 

Rich2001

International Captain
I like Eddie has said changes are needed but IMO I can't see much happening.

1 - The selectors are always to scared to make lots of changes, I can't see the 3/4 changing all being made that everyone is saying.

2 - Vaughan is now going to get his 2 cents worth, and he was pleading at the start of the summer Gough is a must, also very good team mates with McGrath - Just makes you think they will get the support and backing of Vaughan and the selectors will cave and give them another chance.

3 - Stewy had a bad match fair enough, but really is one bad match enough to warrent his axing? - I can see him lasting the summer out, or at least the next Test.

4 - I feel Nasser should now go.. he doesn't seem as up for it a he was, made a vital drop (however no-one plans to drop a catch) and only his 2nd innings could save him really.

After the match highlights on Sky Ian Botham was asked his opinions and he felt that the team should be retained and the players should stand up and be counted, the only slim hope of a change could be Thorpe coming in, and the only other very very slim chance could be C Read...
 

Rich2001

International Captain
hourn said:
eddie,

do you consider both Hussain and Stewart in the firing line?? I thought they'd be two of the guys who'd be safe for the remainder of this season, but I doubt either (we know Stewart won't be) will be there next year.......
They are all saying Nasser will call it a day at the end of the summer or when he gets dropped (this summer) whichever is the sooner.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
hourn said:
eddie,

do you consider both Hussain and Stewart in the firing line?? I thought they'd be two of the guys who'd be safe for the remainder of this season, but I doubt either (we know Stewart won't be) will be there next year.......

From what i can gather, Ed Smith has to get a run and that would be most probably for McGrath.
I certainly feel that Stewart is a serious contender for the chop - sure, he's been a great servant and equally sure he is always likely to come good with the bat but I would always advocate playing yoiur best wicket-keeper (and that's Read from what I've seen this season).

As for Hussain, well, if he can bat with the sturdiness he displayed up to the point he played the silly hook (and instantly regretted it), I would give him another go.

McGrath's had a run of 4 tests without ever seeming set (face it, he would have had to have hit Smith-like innings against Zimbabwe to avoid the 'oh, against Zimbabwe' comments) and there are others with a bit of form behind them who deserve a chance.

It's all a case of 'where do you draw the line?' - the biggest problem IMO is 'where are the bowlers who between them can take 20 wickets?'. I've turned a few stones over but not a lot's slithered out. Cork? (rushes out, washes out mouth with soap and beer - water shortage)
 

hourn

U19 Cricketer
Rich2001 said:
They are all saying Nasser will call it a day at the end of the summer or when he gets dropped (this summer) whichever is the sooner.
yea I woulda thought he would too - it's very hard for a skipper to remain in a team after giving up that role.

Just for any of the Enlighs fellas here, anyone care to give a bit of description of some of the guys i mentioned above...Ed Smith, Michael Lumb, Mark Wagh, Tim Ambrose, Steve Kirby and Chad Keegan....any of them any good, because they've all had pretty good years.

Also a few young guys i spotted having reasonable years (at least according to the stats) were Michael Gough and Gary Pratt and bowlers David Harrison and Chis Tremlett....
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
I'm made my bed, and will lie in it. That said, I'd be very surprised if they made so many changes.

Rich, you say that Vaughan was pleading for Gough before the season, but that was before he saw him bowling in the Tests...

Johnson, if fit, must play, if only to see if his performance against Zimbabwe was a sign of things to come, or if he, like Anderson and McGrath, benefitted from the weak opposition for their debuts and got flattering figures.
 

Rich2001

International Captain
Just found this guys

Darren Gough is expected to announce his retirement from Test cricket, according to a report in the Sunday Telegraph, following his wholehearted but ineffectual performances in the back-to-back matches against South Africa at Edgbaston and Lord's. He is, however, likely to remain available for one-day cricket.

Before this season, Gough had not played a Test match since the end of the 2001 Ashes, and when he withdrew from last winter's Ashes and World Cup squads with a chronic knee injury, it was widely assumed that his career was over. But he battled back bravely, with characteristic spirit, and played a vital role in England's NatWest Series victory over South Africa and Zimbabwe, picking up 2 for 9 from seven overs in the final at Lord's.

But he has been found wanting at Test level, and has combined figures of 1 for 215 in the two matches so far this series. He has lost much of his trademark spring in his delivery stride, and his flat trajectory has been unable to trouble South Africa's batsmen.

If the rumours are true, Gough, 32, will finish eighth in the list of all-time England Test wicket-takers, with 229 wickets at an average of 28.39. As England's finest strike bowler since Ian Botham and Bob Willis, he will be sorely missed. His retirement, alongside the imminent departures of Alec Stewart and, in all probability, Nasser Hussain, marks the end of an era for English cricket.

Source: Cricinfo
 

Craig

World Traveller
I wouldnt believe everything the Sunday Times says. I hope Gough doesnt go, but if he doesnt goodbye Mr Gough :)
 

Rich2001

International Captain
Craig said:
I wouldnt believe everything the Sunday Times says. I hope Gough doesnt go, but if he doesnt goodbye Mr Gough :)
All letters saying sorry can be posted to..........
 

Bazza

International 12th Man
Well first of all can I just say Flintoff's innings was 'a treat to witness' Roy! :D

Also it seems I inadvertantly managed to witness Darren Gough's last contribution in tests, a chipped drive to cover.

So Gough has gone. I was wondering who could come in - Kirtley had slipped my mind. So I would personally bring in Johnson for Gough and Kirtley for Harmison. On the basis that Harmison is unlikely to be dropped, I guess Kirtley could miss out again.

In the batting department, Hussain was definitely incensed at playing that shot, and it seems he still has what it takes to bat at this level so I would retain him and bring in Thorpe for McGrath - the last thing we need is less experience judging by last Thursday's events. This means Smith is the unlucky man here but I wouldn't object to him playing, just wouldn't pick him myself.

I would also retain Stewart. He's performed ok all summer and I don't think he should be dropped just because he didn't make runs here - it's not like many others did and it's not like he's forgotten how to put the gloves on.
 

anzac

International Debutant
goodbye Darren Gough - your services and determination will be missed in the Test arena.......at least he had the cdf to make the call himself unlike other former players who had to be dragged kicking & screaming from the arena....

I guess 2 years off thru injury and 32 years of age are just too tough a combination to come back from in the longer game .......
(any odds on Cairns following the same path but maybe for both forms of the game????).........

It doesn't sound right for players to be stepping down / announcing immediate retirements in the middle of a series - but I agree that it is better to be done sooner rather than later so as to allow for the introduction of new blood / rebuilding etc - especially to try to do something different to have a chance to win / save the series.......

is it too early / late to rename this series as "The Graeme Smith Benefit Tour"?????????? I'm awaiting something like the 'leg stump theory' to be introduced as a means of restricting his shots etc.......

;)
 

Bazza

International 12th Man
I think that's been our problem actually - too many short balls and leg stump half volleys, not enough good length balls just outside off stump in the 'corridor of uncertainty'.

I miss Geoff Boycott.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Yet you retain Anderson and ditch Harmison?

Harmison has been far better than Anderson this series.
 

Craig

World Traveller
When Harmison learns to get a good seam position, then I will think he is a good bowler.

Anderson can swing a ball an can get a good seam position.
 

Bazza

International 12th Man
I think Anderson has far more potential than Harmison. IMO they are like Gough and Tudor.
 

Kimbo

International Debutant
But Harmison should be able to cause problems with the bounce he gets. If he put it on a good length he would do well I think.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
marc71178 said:
Yet you retain Anderson and ditch Harmison?

Harmison has been far better than Anderson this series.
That's hardly impressive in it's self. Every bowler, Harmison included, have been inconsistant and/or lacked penetration.
 

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