Official Rugby Thread

[marc71178]

Eddie Jones to coach England - decidedly meh appointment

Cant believe that the Poms don't have a coach with a pulse in their own setup

Not sure meh is the word I'd be using...

 

[Hurricane]

Not sure meh is the word I'd be using...

Jones highlights just how crap Lancaster was.

 

[Francis]

Too many All Blacks. By that, I mean 8 too many All Blacks.

Smudge, what is your all-time rugby XV?

 

[Francis]

With all the recent success England has had, why not do an all-time England XV?

1. Fran Cotton
2. Peter Wheeler
3. Phil Vickery
4. Martin Johnson
5. Pack Ackford
6. Richard Hill
7. Peter Winterbottom
8. Lawrence Dalaglio
9. Dickie Jeeps
10. Jonny Wilkinson
11. David Duckham
12. Jeremy Guscott
13. Jeff Butterfield
14. Rory Underwood
15. Jason Robinson

subs: Brian Moore (hooker); Jeff Probyn (prop); Bill Beaumont (second-rower); Dean Richards (number eight); Matt Dawson (halfback); Rob Andrew (five-eighth); Will Carling (centre).

And why not Australia...?

1. Topo Rodriguez
2. Tom Lawton Sr
3. Jon White
4. Rob Heming
5. John Eales
6.
7. Col Windon
8. Mark Loane
9. Ken Catchpole
10. Mark Ella
11. David Campese
12. Tim Horan
13. Trevor Allan
14. Brendan Moon
15. Matt Burke

subs: Phil Kearns (hooker); Bill Cerruti (prop); Steve Cutler (second-rower); George Smith (openside-flanker); John Hipwell (halfback); Michael Lynagh (five-eighth); Col Windon (outside centre).

And last of all, the greatest rugby nation of all time...

1. Chris Koch
2. Uli Schmidt
3. Boy Louw
4. Frik du Preez
5. Johan Classen
6. Jan Ellis
7. Piet Greyling
8. Hennie Muller
9. Danie Craven
10. Bennie Osler
11. Carel du Plessis
12. John Gainsford
13. Danie Garber
14. Ray Mordt
15. H.O. de Villiers

subs: Jan Lotz (hooker); Hannes Marias (prop); Mark Andrews (second-rower); Mourne du Plessis (eightman) ; Joost van der Westhuizen (halfback); Nass Botha (five-eighth); Mannetjies Roux (winger).

Simply put... nobody! NOBODY! Could beat that side... not with 15 punching Kevin Skinners could you overcome that side...

Eh I'm bored... the French are the hardest to select...

1. Christian Califano
2. Raphael Ibanez
3. Robert Paparemborde
4. Lucien Mias
5. Benoit Dauga
6. Michel Crauste
7. Jean-Pierre Rives
8. Walter Spanghero
9. Jerome Gallion
10. Jean Pratt (he occasionally played at "standoff half")
11. Emile N'Tamack
12. Dider Codorniou
13. Phllippe Sella
14. Patrice Lasiquet (sp?)
15. Serge Blanco

Jean-Pierre Gauret (prop); Some Hooker (hooker); Abdel Benazzi (second-row/backrower); Laurent Rodriguez (eightman); Pierre Berbizier (halfback), Denis Charvet (centre), Pierre Villepreux (fullback)

WALES!

1.
2. Bryn Meredith
3. Graham Price
4. Ray Prosser
5. I'm bored and can't be bothered
6. Ivor Jones
7. John Taylor
8. Mervyn Davies
9. Gareth Edwards
10. Cliff Morgan
11. Shane Williams
12. John Dawes
13. Scott Gibbs
14. Gerald Davies
15. J.P.R. Williams

Bobby Windsor (hooker); Clem Thomas (flanker); Dai Morris (eightman); Haydn Tanner (halfback); Barry John (five-eighth); Terry Davies (fullback)

 

[Hurricane]

No Jonathan Davies for Wales?

A lot of old school players in those lists...e..g Catchpole

 

[Francis]

No Jonathan Davies for Wales?

A lot of old school players in those lists...e..g Catchpole

There's an old Welsh joke about them being a fly-half factory. You could have Cliff Morgan, Barry John, Phil Bennett, Cliff Jones, Gerald Davies, or Jonathan Davies.

I'd probably have Davies third on that list. Most Welshies would have Davies fourth, behind Bennett. I have Cliff Morgan as my greatest Welsh five-eighth because of my esteem for the Lions of the 1950s.

It's the influence of an old friend of mine, but I prefer the 1950s history of the British Lions to their 1970s history. The 1970s get all the glory because of their two greatest triumphs. But the Lions of the 1950s were real trailblazers. The main reason I regard the Lions of the 1950s as more interesting than the 1970s is because of their triumph in South Africa - for that reason Bryn Meredith, Cliff Morgan and co are always at the front of my mind when all-time sides are talked about. The 1959 Lions were light years ahead of New Zealand, but the Kiwis has two things: (1) their own referee; (2) the boot on Don Clarke. There was one Test in 1959 when the Lions scored like four/five tries to NZ who scored zero or one (I forget). But NZ won off the referee, penalties, and Don Clarke. Most of NZ wanted the Lions to win that last Test, because to not do so would be an injustice! It's because of the tries that he scored on that tour that I really rate Tony O'Reilly.

Also I regard beating South Africa in the amateur era more difficult than beating New Zealand in the amateur era. That will probably infuriate Smudge, but the FACTS bear me out. Consider, for instance, that the Lions of 1955 drew a series there 2-2. The French became the first country of the 20th century to win a series there. They won one Test and drew a second. So they won a series, but they did so by only winning one Test. The 1963 Wallabies out-did both the Lions and French by doing something they never did - winning two Tests in a row. The Lions finally won a series there in 1974.

But think about it: Prior to the 1974 Lions, the most impressive thing anybody ever did against South Africa was the Wallabies winning two Tests!!! Truly this was the greatest side of the amateur era of rugby - a fact further borne out by the fact that South Africa had a winning record over NZ in the entire amateur era.

Then consider that NZ were beaten at home in 1937 by South Africa (touted as the best side ever to tour NZ), the Trevor Allan Walabies of 1949 absolutely mutilated them (3-0); despite getting killed in the forwards, the Lions won in 1971; the Wallabies won in 1986 despite not having Moon, Gould, and a host of other players I forget. The French in 1994 scored the greatest try ever to beat that silly Laurie Mains. And of course there was that kerfuffle in 2009 when a series went 1-1 against France, but the series trophy went to France on aggregate (boy! Henry really didn't think about that one!).

So I rate what Cliff Morgan did in the mid 1950s against South Africa as making him the greatest Welsh five-eighth ever. Much is made about the Lions backline of 1971 - Edwards-John-Duckham-Gibson-Dawes-Davies-Williams. But in fact the Lions didn't have that much possession in the series. It was mostly the boot of Barry John that saved them. For that reason, I rate Barry John as the second best Welsh five-eighth. But his defence was quite poor (something rarely mentioned), and while he played 25 Tests, I think someone like Mark Ella (who also played 25 Tests) created better tries with the ball.

Jonathan Davies is third on my list. Who knows what he would have done against that great Welsh pack of the 1970s. At least he scored that awesome try against NZ in the early 90s, running the length of the field. Phil Bennett has a bit of the milestone around his neck for not winning the 1977 Lions series. That third Test should have gone to the Lions, but they stuffed it and the series was lost from there.

 

[Francis]

Re: Catchpole

If you trust Chris Laidlaw (and I don't!) - who is generally regarded as one of NZ's three great scrum-halves (Laidlaw, Going, Loveridge) - Catchpole is the greatest scrum-half to even play rugby - even better than Gareth Edwards. The the 1966/67 Tour to the UK, the Chairman of the English rugby union called him the best scrum-half to ever play the game. It was truly a shame that the sinister Colin Meads brutalized him in the manner that he did. I've read the part of Meads' autobiography where he gives an account of what "really" happened, and I have seen a tape of what actually happened. Truly he is a disgusting human being.

But talk about Welsh fly-halves reminds me that Australia is a scrum-half-making factory: Chris McKivat, Ken Catchpole, Des Connor, John Hipwell, Nick Farr-Jones, George Gregan.

When I think South Africa, I think props. When I think Australia, I think scrum-halves. When I think Wales, I think fly-halves. When I think France, I think centres.

 

[Hurricane]

Re: Catchpole

If you trust Chris Laidlaw (and I don't!) - who is generally regarded as one of NZ's three great scrum-halves (Laidlaw, Going, Loveridge) - Catchpole is the greatest scrum-half to even play rugby - even better than Gareth Edwards. The the 1966/67 Tour to the UK, the Chairman of the English rugby union called him the best scrum-half to ever play the game. It was truly a shame that the sinister Colin Meads brutalized him in the manner that he did. I've read the part of Meads' autobiography where he gives an account of what "really" happened, and I have seen a tape of what actually happened. Truly he is a disgusting human being.

But talk about Welsh fly-halves reminds me that Australia is a scrum-half-making factory: Chris McKivat, Ken Catchpole, Des Connor, John Hipwell, Nick Farr-Jones, George Gregan.

When I think South Africa, I think props. When I think Australia, I think scrum-halves. When I think Wales, I think fly-halves. When I think France, I think centres.

Great post,

When I think about Australia I think about number 7s.

That and Campese, I think of him as he is their greatest player of all time. For some reasons the Aussie public does not revere him and yet his name is said with a great pause amongst people I circulate amongst here in NZ along with other legendary names. It is not Sella, it is the Great Sella. And it is not Blanco, it is the Great Serge Blanco. That is just how one talks about these players. At least in civilised circles.

 

[James]

What a finish to the final round of Super Rugby. Who would have thought the Hurricanes would finish top in the end!

The Jaguars/Lions match this morning was some of the most intense watching I've had involving non-NZ teams.

If it goes on form, you'd expect to see all 4 NZ teams in the semi-finals.

 

[social]

Great post,

When I think about Australia I think about number 7s.

That and Campese, I think of him as he is their greatest player of all time. For some reasons the Aussie public does not revere him and yet his name is said with a great pause amongst people I circulate amongst here in NZ along with other legendary names. It is not Sella, it is the Great Sella. And it is not Blanco, it is the Great Serge Blanco. That is just how one talks about these players. At least in civilised circles.

Campese is a polarizing figure as:

a. for all his attacking brilliance, he was a defensive liability all too often; and

b. he is a complete tool

Of his rugby wing contemporaries, I'd prefer Kirwan and Wilson to him whilst amongst Aussies, I definitely rate O'Connor above him (plus quite a few league players)

 

[Hurricane]

Campese is a polarizing figure as:

a. for all his attacking brilliance, he was a defensive liability all too often; and

b. he is a complete tool

Of his rugby wing contemporaries, I'd prefer Kirwan and Wilson to him whilst amongst Aussies, I definitely rate O'Connor above him (plus quite a few league players)

Campese would never ever have to buy his own beer if he came to NZ for a holiday.

Give me some more here - help me understand how he is a tool with some examples.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Campese ***ist tweet about Fairfax Media rugby journalist creates storm

 

[ripper868]

Campese is a bit like Ron Jeremy. Brilliant at what he did but a bit of a dick overall.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Campese is a bit like Ron Jeremy. Brilliant at what he did but a bit of a dick overall.

Big on auto-fellatio?

 

[Francis]

BoyBrumby, what is your all-time XV?

Hurricane and I have become good friends quickly, so I decided to give my all-time All Blacks XV.

1. Overrated Because He Threw a Dummy In A Barbarians Game
2. Refereed Half the Tests He Played In
3. Punched Two South African Props Because He Couldn't Take it.
4. Suffered a Back Injury Indirectly Related to Kevin Skinner
5. Ripped Apart Ken Catchpole's Leg!
6. Overtly Religious!
7. Cheated Half Of His Career (and has the hobby of flying aeroplanes, interestingly enough!)
8. Only Made The Side Because Aucklanders Didn't Want Him To Convert to League (Bring Back Buck!)
9. Stupid Farmer's Moustache!
10. Was Afraid To Run At The Line Late In His Career!
11. Kidney Disease!
12. Bert Cooke
13. Scored a Try Against The Lions When There Was Actually Two Sets of Hands On The Ball (The Try Shouldn't Have Been Given)
14. Depressed All The Time and Needs To Man Up!
15. Was Lucky To Play On An Undefeated Touring Side!

subs:

prop: took steroids
lock: took a dive against Wales in a line-out to get a penalty that decided the Test
flanker: Kel Tremain
eightman: coached a side that lost to the Wallabies in 1986
halfback: got exposed against the '71 Lions in the 3rd Test
five-eighth: couldn't score a try to save his life
full-back: nothing but a boot! General play = pathetic!

 

[Francis]

If anyone watches the documentary "David Campese: Rugby's My Life", I think it's difficult to dispute that he's the greatest attacking rugby player ever. I mean the man really was incredible in attack. I mean you only need to look at the Rugby World Cup in 1991 - the diagonal run, the blind pass, the tries against Argentina. His vision and ability to insert himself in the centers, or even flyhalf, etc. I mean he truly was incredible.

Obviously, he was a defensive liability and occasionally made a ****-up. But he really is the greatest attacking back in rugby history.

Unfortunately, he's more your Shane Warne-type than Don Bradman-type. People sometimes have difficulty rating Warne because obviously he's not respected like a Steve Waugh is. Another example is Shawn Michaels, the wrestler. Shawn Michaels is maybe the best wrestler ever, but because he has a reputation behind the scenes, some people can't separate that from his body of work.

 

[Francis]

I'm back to being bored. So here are my 10 greatest 10s of all-time (expect a Welsh flavour!).

1. Jack Kyle (Ireland)
2. Cliff Morgan (Wales)
3. Hugo Porta (Argentina)
4. Mark Ella (Australia)
5. Barry John (Wales)
6. Michael Lynagh (Australia)
7. Phil Bennett (Wales)
8. Jonathan Davies (Wales)
9. Jonny Wilkinson (England)
10. Nass Botha (South Africa)

Wow! That was tough! The hard thing about ranking flyhalves/five-eighths is that how you rank them often depends on how you think rugby should be played. Northern Hemisphere people tend to prefer tactical flyhalves (like Wilkinson, Lynagh, etc), while I find Southern Hemisphere people tend to prefer running five-eighths.

To me, Jack Kyle and Cliff Morgan belong to the golden era of rugby and deserve to be one and two. The 1950 Lions didn't win in New Zealand, but Jack Kyle re-wrote the book. It's a testament to this man's greatness that he was voted Ireland's greatest ever player, over O'Driscoll, Gibson, and McBride.

Hugo Porta is perplexing to me. He's the greatest in terms of drop-goals - incredible drop-goals. He'd turn around and just have blind snaps. He took a very mediocre side to New Zealand in 1979, and they drew one Test off his incredible kicking. I've seen Tests where Argentina doesn't do too well, and it's because Hugo Porta put it all on himself to him.

Mark Ella, to me, in terms of running rugby, is the best I've ever seen. His passing, his vision, his capacity to read the play, and best of all... HIS SUPPORT PLAY. But he didn't stay around very long, and his kicking could be a liability.

Barry John is overrated. But his kicking won the Lions that famous series in 1971. I esteem the achievement of Cliff Morgan in South Africa as greater than John's. John is, of course, famous for finding Fergie McCormick out so many times it's not funny. But his tackling was quite poor.

Lynagh is underrated. Honestly, I think Lynagh has the best tactical kicking game of any flyhalf in history! That's a big call. But people forget just how fantastic his kicking game was. Most Aussies I know rate Larkham a better play, but they're idiots. They prefer a running five-eighth and don't realize how good Lynagh was tactically.

Bennett is a legend, but didn't win with the Lions in 1977.

Jonathan Davies was a great, great player, in a very, very bad side. If he played with the Welsh in the 70s we might be calling him the best five-eighth ever.

Wilkinson... he's overrated. He played his best from 2001-2003 in front of an awesome, awesome forward pack. His tactical kicking game was incredible back then. Honestly, if he wasn't such a good defender, he couldn't be in my top 10. There have been times, since 2007, where I'd say he was a liability, stood too deep, and let his team down.

Botha... horrible defender. But he's comparable to Hugo Porta in terms of being able to kick mesmerizing drop-goals. He's also the greatest 10 I've ever seen for clearing kicks. If you're deep in your own 22 and you need a good clearance kick, and there's some back-rowers trying off-set you, he's Joe Cool. He'll run around you, tap you on your shoulder, and then put a beautiful kick in.

 

[Francis]

Just quickly, before I take a break from this site... The 10 Greatest Open-Side Flankers Of All-Time

Now obviously, for much of the history of rugby union, teams just played "flankers" and didn't specialize. It wasn't until 1977 that I saw New Zealand specialize between open-side and blind-side, so I'll try to sort this out a little bit. For example, someone like Ian Kirkpatrick is more openside than blindside, whereas Kel Tremain is more blindside than openside, despite the fact that teams didn't really specialize much in those days. Anyway...

1. Peter Winterbottom (England)
2. Ivor Jones (Wales)
3. Col Windon (Australia)
4. Piet Greyling (South Africa)
5. Fergus Slattery
6. George Smith (Australia)
7. Jan Ellis (South Africa)
8. Schalk Burger (South Africa)
9. Simon Poidevin (Australia)
10. Findlay Calder (Scotland)

Wow! That was tough! Peter Winterbottom is adored in New Zealand like no other player I know. He so completely outplayed Michael Jones in 1993 that I couldn't have "Ice" anywhere in my top 10. Winterbottom is a legend of the game! He's easily my number one pick!

Ivor Jones was perhaps the first played to really mould the flanker position into what it would become for the next 50 years.

Col Windon was recently called one of Australia's four invincible.

Greyling was more an openside than Ellis, and it sounds like he gave New Zealand a real hiding to nothing in 1970.

Slattery played with the two most famous Lions sides.

George Smith was a one-man revolution, especially from 2000-2002. It was unheard of to see such a complete openside flanker.

Ellis played more on the blindside to Greyling, but enough to demonstrate that he belongs on this side.

Burger... a dirty player who just flew... FLEW! Into those rucks. McCaw never had one victory over him!

Poidevin! No ball skills! All heart! Made Buck Shelford so angry that he channeled the same frustration Kevin Skinner felt against the South African props of the 1950s, and started punching him furiously for no reason.

Calder is a throw-back to that tough Lions pack of 1989 that really exposed Australia in their forwards.

 

[Francis]

My last post for a while... HOOKERS!

1. Bryn Meredith (Wales)
2. Keith Wood (Ireland)
3. Uli Schmidt (South Africa)
4. Peter Wheeler (England)
5. Colin Deans (Scotland)
6. Bobby Windsor (Wales)
7. Jan Lotz (South Africa)
8. Brian Moore (England)
9. Tom Lawton Jr (Australia)
10. PhIl Keanrs/Peter Johnson (Australia)

Bryn Meredith is a legendary Lion. He scored a famous try in 1956 by packing down in the scrum, breaking away from it, and supporting one of his backs - truly a legend!

Keith Wood... covered the ground like a back-rower. Nobody ever played with more heart.

Schmidt would probably be number one if he played more rugby. He scored an outrageous - ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGOUS - try on the Cavs Tour, with a great big gaping side-step - YES! A HOOKER WITH A SIDE-STEP!

Wheeler is generally regarded as England's greatest ever hooker.

Deans was voted the best hooker of the 80s!

Moore is underrated - a really good hooker and terrible commentator.

Jan Lotz is SA's second best hooker ever.

Tom Lawton Jr gave Sean Fitzpatrick a horrible hiding to nothing when he first started rugby - a horrible hiding. Fitzpatrick called him the best scrummager he ever came against, and his line-out throwing was so pin-point.

Phil Kearns... he was like a fourth backrower. Fitzpatrick calls him the best hooker in the world from 1991-1993. This was when Fitzy dropped that ball that led to a Rory Underwood try in 1993. But his was like a lightning in the line-out and never hit the same place twice! Johnson's lightning-quick strikes led Australia to success in SA in 1993.

 

[Francis]

PROPS! I make no apologies... absolutely no apologies... for putting FIVE SOUTH AFRICANS on this list!

1. Robert Paparemborde (France)
2. Chris Koch (South Africa)
3. Fran Cotton (England)
4. Graham Price (Wales)
5. Topo Rodriguez (Australia)
6. Ian McLaughlin (Scotland)
7. Os du Randt (South Africa)
8. Jaap Bekker (South Africa)
9. Boy Louw (South Africa)
10. Hannes Maris (South Africa)

Paparemborde... a giant of the game! An absolute giant! A dirty player who took all liberties, but Graham Price never got the better of him!

Who is South Africa's greatest prop? There's too many to pick! But when he wasn't getting punched by Kevin Skinner, Chris Koch had immaculate ball skills in addition to being the strongest scrummagger in the world.

Cotton... life must have been hell for him, winning such great ball for England, only to have it constantly squandered. But he was immense in that Lions scrum of 1974.

Price is overrated. But he scored that amazing AMAZING length of the field try.

Topo... completely transformed the Australian scrum. Hard to believe that Australia had the best scrum in the world at one point.

Even South Africans admit that Mighty Mouse drilled the life out of Hannes Marias, and it takes a lot for South Africans to admit that!!!

Os du Randt... Carl Hayman was completely ineffective against him!

Jaap Bekker... BY FAR the best prop in the world in his own day. Only a Kevin Skinner punch could stop him. To his credit, he never punched back.

Louw... a Russian Jew who could kick goals!

Marias... propped for so long in an ageless career in the toughest conditions possible.

Concerning the admission of players from another country


Look! I've obviously skipped over a country here, and I'd like to apologize for that. I am, of course, obviously talking about FRANCE!

Christian Califano and Jean-Pierre Gauret came very close to getting in my top 10. But South AFrica is THE COUNTRY when it comes to props.