Official Pro-Wrestling Thread (WWE, TNA, ROH etc.)

[GIMH]

Got it in one masterblaster, great post

 

[GIMH]

Where this is unedniably true, how many times have we said this before? As I mentioned earlier we could have said the same thing about, Chris Masters, Carlito, Shelton, Christian, Matt Hardy etc.. many years ago, the E have had plenty of young stars ready to step up to the main event over the years, but the majority of them never get the opportunity. Let's just hope for once they actually do.

Come on man, no need to bring the thread down with idiotic comments like that

 

[sledger]

Come on man, no need to bring the thread down with idiotic comments like that

GAH! I maintain that both of these guys are awesome, and both would have held a world title by now had their push not been stupidly ended and never properly resumed. Shelton actually got several pinfalls over HHH for gods sake, it just seems so stupid to me that they would give a young guy such a big win only to then push him very well for the next few months and then just inexplicably bury him for the next two years and then resume his push. Similarly Carlito was getting major wins when he first moved over to RAW in 2005, and similarly, ended up going nowhere and just buried by HHH each week, his recent heel turn also promises that he will be going..precisely nowhere as well, which is infuriating as he is a great worker.

 

[GIMH]

Neither of them are good enough for the main event though. Good solid midcarders.

 

[masterblaster]

Where this is unedniably true, how many times have we said this before? As I mentioned earlier we could have said the same thing about, Chris Masters, Carlito, Shelton, Christian, Matt Hardy etc.. many years ago, the E have had plenty of young stars ready to step up to the main event over the years, but the majority of them never get the opportunity. Let's just hope for once they actually do.

Out of the names you mentioned only Christian and Matt Hardy are really main event calibre. The case with Christian was that even though he was over like anything in 2005 and while he was an outstanding wrestler he still was not as good as he is today.

His stint in TNA where he wrestled the likes of AJ Styles, Samoa Joe and Kurt Angle regularly did him a world of good. Watch a Christian match now and watch one in 2005 and you can see that he's added so much more to his list of moves and he's been extremely sharp ever since his return.

While I do agree with your post in general and that WWE don't do enough to gradually move their upper mid card talent up to main event they have to start doing it sooner rather than later. Christian is a perfect example. He could be having unbelievable matches with the likes of John Cena, Randy Orton, CM Punk and Chris Jericho but here he is carrying ECW and while he's doing a good job he needs more competition to really increase the value he can bring to the WWE.

Either move Christian to Smackdown or bring the likes of John Morrison, The Miz and MVP to ECW and give them high profile feuds with Christian. Otherwise, Christian facing Dreamer and Regal all the time will eventually get stale and won't be the best use of Christian's great ability.

 

[Athlai]

Carlito has a horrible gimmick.

 

[sledger]

Neither of them are good enough for the main event though. Good solid midcarders.

I would have to disagree, both of them, particularly Shelton have what is required to make them at the very least a transitional champion. Both of them are easily as good as Jeff Hardy for example.

 

[sledger]

Carlito has a horrible gimmick.

Tbh I really don't think he does, it's maybe gotten a bit stale in recent times, but I always found it good value.

 

[masterblaster]

Neither of them are good enough for the main event though. Good solid midcarders.

I do think that Jack Swagger, MVP and Evan Bourne have far more potential to become main event stars than Chris Masters and Carlito have.

 

[masterblaster]

Carlito has a horrible gimmick.

Plus he seems to have a bad attitude, is lazy in the ring and comes across as really arrogant. Don't really like the guy to be honest and I don't think he'll ever make it past the mid card.

 

[Athlai]

Tbh I really don't think he does, it's maybe gotten a bit stale in recent times, but I always found it good value.

Just could never get behind him and take him seriously as either a face or heel. Kind of just that annoying guy in between.

I was thinking today about the demise of the multi-nicknamed superstars, seemed like HBK, the Rock, Y2J, Hogan all went by dozens of names but the newer superstars stick with only one.

 

[Athlai]

Plus he seems to have a bad attitude, is lazy in the ring and comes across as really arrogant. Don't really like the guy to be honest and I don't think he'll ever make it past the mid card.

Orton has all those traits but I love his gimmick, reckon Carlito needs an overhaul to be pushed in the right direction.

 

[sledger]

Out of the names you mentioned only Christian and Matt Hardy are really main event calibre. The case with Christian was that even though he was over like anything in 2005 and while he was an outstanding wrestler he still was not as good as he is today.

His stint in TNA where he wrestled the likes of AJ Styles, Samoa Joe and Kurt Angle regularly did him a world of good. Watch a Christian match now and watch one in 2005 and you can see that he's added so much more to his list of moves and he's been extremely sharp ever since his return.

While I do agree with your post in general and that WWE don't do enough to gradually move their upper mid card talent up to main event they have to start doing it sooner rather than later. Christian is a perfect example. He could be having unbelievable matches with the likes of John Cena, Randy Orton, CM Punk and Chris Jericho but here he is carrying ECW and while he's doing a good job he needs more competition to really bring the value he can bring to the WWE.

Either move Christian to Smackdown or bring the likes of John Morrison, The Miz and MVP to ECW and give them high profile feuds with Christian. Otherwise, Christian facing Dreamer and Regal all the time will eventually get stale and won't be the best use of Christian's great ability.

This is one of my main gripes to be honest, though you are absolutely correct in saying he has benefited massively from his run in TNA, the thing is, he is currently in a position where in terms of placement in the card, he is no better off than he was when he left the WWE, he may indeed be maineventing ECW, but if we're honest, that really is the "C" show in the hierachy of things, despite it actually being arguably the best show on TV.

If however, he does get a move to another show, which he inevitably will, and win a world title, then I will be thrilled, but also annoyed, as it will be the kind of push he should have received about 3 years ago. Though it would be something fresh for the ME scene, which I would certainly welcome, I would get the feeling that rather than being a new champion, he ought to have been a defending champion who was now helping to put the younger guys over, not having to have himself put over, small concern maybe. But I would much rather have seen for instance, Christian (c) vs CM Punk or John Morrison for a world title, Christian going in as a strong champion and putting the newer guys over, rather than Christian challenging someone like Batista, then having to go through a load of dead wood challengers in order to get himself over enough to then put someone else over. Christian is an amazing guy, no doubt about it, one of the best workers in the world in fact, but he is no spring chicken, sooner or later he will have to start winding down, though it would be amazing to see him hold a world title, I just think it would always be a massive waste that he didn't hold one sooner.

 

[GIMH]

I would have to disagree, both of them, particularly Shelton have what is required to make them at the very least a transitional champion. Both of them are easily as good as Jeff Hardy for example.

Not a chance IMO. You have to ask yourself, would they have sold PPVs if they were headlining them month-after-month? And the answer is no. Because they aren't over. And all our personal preferences aside, the fundamental measure of a good pro-wrestler is being over. It's no good saying they are better than Jeff technically (which I don't necessarily agree with anyway), and that they are on the same level on the mic as him. Because the crowd don't give a **** about them. And why is that? Because they aren't as good at getting the crowd to care as Jeff is.

I am a big fan of Jeff so maybe it's not fair for me to answer this, but I just can't see where you are coming from with this one.

 

[sledger]

Orton has all those traits but I love his gimmick, reckon Carlito needs an overhaul to be pushed in the right direction.

Tbh Orton does have just a sense of "Star Quality", a lot more than Carlito has anyway, which probably explains why he has made it so far and Carlito has been left to rot. I do like Carlito, but will admit that he does seem to be very arrogant and a touch lazy, but being a nice guy isn't really a pre-requisite for success in the business, HBK, Orton, HHH and JBL have all at one stage or another had a terrible reputation for being absolute ****s backstage and away from the ring. I think Carlito play's a heel character incredibly well mind you, find him very believable, the fact that he is apparently a bit of an idiot in real life perhaps helps with this.

 

[GIMH]

Just could never get behind him and take him seriously as either a face or heel. Kind of just that annoying guy in between.

I was thinking today about the demise of the multi-nicknamed superstars, seemed like HBK, the Rock, Y2J, Hogan all went by dozens of names but the newer superstars stick with only one.

Morrison?

 

[masterblaster]

This is one of my main gripes to be honest, though you are absolutely correct in saying he has benefited massively from his run in TNA, the thing is, he is currently in a position where in terms of placement in the card, he is no better off than he was when he left the WWE, he may indeed be maineventing ECW, but if we're honest, that really is the "C" show in the hierachy of things, despite it actually being arguably the best show on TV.

If however, he does get a move to another show, which he inevitably will, and win a world title, then I will be thrilled, but also annoyed, as it will be the kind of push he should have received about 3 years ago. Though it would be something fresh for the ME scene, which I would certainly welcome, I would get the feeling that rather than being a new champion, he ought to have been a defending champion who was now helping to put the younger guys over, not having to have himself put over, small concern maybe. But I would much rather have seen for instance, Christian (c) vs CM Punk or John Morrison for a world title, Christian going in as a strong champion and putting the newer guys over, rather than Christian challenging someone like Batista, then having to go through a load of dead wood challengers in order to get himself over enough to then put someone else over. Christian is an amazing guy, no doubt about it, one of the best workers in the world in fact, but he is no spring chicken, sooner or later he will have to start winding down, though it would be amazing to see him hold a world title, I just think it would always be a massive waste that he didn't hold one sooner.

Can't argue with that. Being a huge Christian fan I agree and definitely feel that he should've been World Champion in the WWE a lot sooner. I guess it's not all bad as he was the face of TNA from the end of 2005 to 2007 and did win the TNA World Heavyweight Championship twice. Being a two time ECW Champion isn't a bad deal either.

A part of me wants him to onto bigger and better things on Smackdown but I'm a bit concerned that he will get lost in the shuffle there whereas on ECW he's been given complete freedom and he is the focus of the show as he's clearly ECW's biggest star. As ECW's main event star he definitely gets the most in ring and promo time as compared with the other guys so it's not that bad a deal. I'm sure there will be opportunities in the future for him to go to Smackdown or Raw.

 

[sledger]

Not a chance IMO. You have to ask yourself, would they have sold PPVs if they were headlining them month-after-month? And the answer is no. Because they aren't over. And all our personal preferences aside, the fundamental measure of a good pro-wrestler is being over. It's no good saying they are better than Jeff technically (which I don't necessarily agree with anyway), and that they are on the same level on the mic as him. Because the crowd don't give a **** about them. And why is that? Because they aren't as good at getting the crowd to care as Jeff is.

I am a big fan of Jeff so maybe it's not fair for me to answer this, but I just can't see where you are coming from with this one.

Well it's true that they are no longer over, but then again, the Rock went from being booed out of the building every show he worked to being one of the most over guys in the history of wrestling. Carlito in particular is not devoid of charisma, and can work a great promo, just a shame that he is never allowed the time anymore.

The thing is though, is that both of these guys at one stage were massively over, particularly Shelton. Watch back WM21, Shelton totally stole the show in the first ever MITB and got a massive ovation at the end of the match. Similarly (I know I go on about this match) but watch the match between him and HBK on an episode of RAW from 2005 , the crowd were realy behind him, they just wanted more, and to top it off HBK out of kayfabe went up to him after the match and shook his hand. I would maintain, that if his push was continued from that point he would be as over as Jeff Hardy is now, no question. As for the technical side of things, I agree that it's not the be all and end all of measuring success, far from it in fact, but I would say that Shelton is far superior to Jeff Hardy in this regard, by miles in fact, in fact he's better than most of the roster. Reminds me actually, Shelton vs Chris Jericho from Backlash 2005 is another fantastic match.

 

[masterblaster]

Tbh Orton does have just a sense of "Star Quality", a lot more than Carlito has anyway, which probably explains why he has made it so far and Carlito has been left to rot. I do like Carlito, but will admit that he does seem to be very arrogant and a touch lazy, but being a nice guy isn't really a pre-requisite for success in the business, HBK, Orton, HHH and JBL have all at one stage or another had a terrible reputation for being absolute ****s backstage and away from the ring. I think Carlito play's a heel character incredibly well mind you, find him very believable, the fact that he is apparently a bit of an idiot in real life perhaps helps with this.

It's the jerks who mostly climb to the top. Although there have been more than a few guys in the main event who've had the reputation of being friendly and well liked backstage. Sting, AJ Styles, Christian, Ricky Steamboat, Rey Mysterio and Chris Jericho come to mind.

 

[sledger]

Can't argue with that. Being a huge Christian fan I agree and definitely feel that he should've been World Champion in the WWE a lot sooner. I guess it's not all bad as he was the face of TNA from the end of 2005 to 2007 and did win the TNA World Heavyweight Championship twice. Being a two time ECW Champion isn't a bad deal either.

A part of me wants him to onto bigger and better things on Smackdown but I'm a bit concerned that he will get lost in the shuffle there whereas on ECW he's been given complete freedom and he is the focus of the show as he's clearly ECW's biggest star. As ECW's main event star he definitely gets the most in ring and promo time as compared with the other guys so it's not that bad a deal. I'm sure there will be opportunities in the future for him to go to Smackdown or Raw.

Yeah I think there is a definite danger of this happening, though hopefully it can be avoided. I think a lot depends on who he would be put in a program with, if he was given the chance to work with someone close to him, like Edge, John Cena or Chris Jericho I could see him getting some major exposure and some excellent time in the spotlight. I just hope he is kept away from HHH and Randy Orton, can see that ending dissapointingly. Would love to see a heel turn and a feud with the Undertaker mind you, I think that would be fantastic.