*Official* Pro-Wrestling Thread II

[Jono]

Michaels was gun, no doubt about it.

In terms of overall business though, should always be remembered that He and Bret (and Taker) couldn't take down WCW. They needed Austin to take the reigns. WAG.

Hate that Austin's career was cut short. Wahhhhhh

 

[GIMH]

Michaels was gun, no doubt about it.

In terms of overall business though, should always be remembered that He and Bret (and Taker) couldn't take down WCW. They needed Austin to take the reigns. WAG.

Hate that Austin's career was cut short. Wahhhhhh

For sure. What's interesting to consider is what would have happened to WCW had wwf stayed in the doldrums. The way they did business and booked talent means a decline was surely inevitable one way or another anyway. Could have just been really bad for the industry as a whole, if that makes sense.

 

[andmark]

Reigns wins. Anyone remember the days when you had to "earn your dues" in order to be a main eventer?

 

[Spikey]

just about to start Dean's match and so far this has sucked except for the tag team match

 

[andmark]

Woops, sorry for the spoiler haha

 

[OverratedSanity]

OMG Cesaro and Kidd WONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

Everything else can piss off

 

[OverratedSanity]

So, what do you guys think about the Foley chokeslam through the cage at KotR 1998 which has long been claimed to be an unplanned botch? I've always had my doubts, and listening to Solomonster's latest podcast (coz I have nothing to do all day) basically confirmed my suspicions. It was 100% planned and his explanations made perfect sense.

 

[andmark]

That cage looked so fumbly and unsafe that it must have at least been in their minds when they did it. On the other hand, they couldn't have known how bad Foley would be after jumping off the cage and so wouldn't risk more injury with going through the cage? Weird stuff whatever the case.

 

[OverratedSanity]

That cage looked so fumbly and unsafe that it must have at least been in their minds when they did it. On the other hand, they couldn't have known how bad Foley would be after jumping off the cage and so wouldn't risk more injury with going through the cage? Weird stuff whatever the case.

He actually made some great points i hadn't thought of before. The very fact that they climbed back up was a dead give away. There was no way they were going to climb back down slowly... the only reason you go on top of the cage is to do a fall spot. Also, Taker's chokeslam was weird... he clearly circled around Mankind in an artificial looking way before the chokeslam clearly because he wanted to slam Foley through that specific part in the cage. would've looked weak as hell had the cage not given away. And for me, it just gives away too easily for it not to be unplanned.

 

[andmark]

I'll have to listen to the podcast. I really can't see them risking so much injury though. I mean he could have died after going off the cage into the announcers, and then going through the cage onto the canvas. It just seems too dangerous for the chokeslam through it to be planned. The cage generally looked flimsy and so it would have been incredible for it not to have gone through and so it could've been unplanned. Equally though, Taker steps through the cage at parts and so they must've known what would happen when they chokeslammed the less than thin Foley.

 

[duffer]

Marked out twice just then. First time when Wyatt came out of the casket and the second when Cena passed out. Made me forget the cringe that was Triple H. Seriously, a decade later and they're still trying to bury WCW. Loving how Hunter tried to take the credit for it.

 

[duffer]

Both of their ridiculous egos got in the way.

Forever why Rock > both. And I love Bret to death. But they're both tools who believed they were bigger than the game.

It's one of those things about Bret. He took his whole gimmick too seriously and thought he really was the greatest ever without understanding how the business makes money. It makes me cringe when I watch some old promos and even recent shoots of his. His ring work as good as most aspire to though.

Not going to touch on HBK. Add him to my list.

 

[sledger]

Yeah Foley is the best at putting people over. I kinda see him in a different bracket to the others I mentioned though. Not as in a level below, but. Can't really explain.

Foley didn't quite have the longevity at the very top that the others you mention did, I suppose. Similarly, Foley was always very much portrayed as the underdog, or above his station, or as being threatening in an extremely unorthodox or predictable way. The others were basically all cast as bona fide legit pure athlete types. Like you say, this isn't enough to devalue what he did, or put him a level below the others, but it might explain why you might differentiate him from them on some level.

 

[andmark]

It's one of those things about Bret. He took his whole gimmick too seriously and thought he really was the greatest ever without understanding how the business makes money. It makes me cringe when I watch some old promos and even recent shoots of his. His ring work as good as most aspire to though.

Not going to touch on HBK. Add him to my list.

Bret really is incredibly bitter. I wish he'd let go of Montreal

 

[sledger]

Bret really is incredibly bitter. I wish he'd let go of Montreal

I guess he came from an era, and family, that viewed wrestling as much more about the actual wrestling than the making of money or entertainment in the wider context. It's hard to imagine that if the Screwjob happened these days the reactions of those involved would have been so protracted.

Mind you, if it wasn't for the Screwjob then wrestling these days might not be anything like what we've come to expect, so I guess it really is a moot point.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Foley didn't quite have the longevity at the very top that the others you mention did, I suppose. Similarly, Foley was always very much portrayed as the underdog, or above his station, or as being threatening in an extremely unorthodox or predictable way. The others were basically all cast as bona fide legit pure athlete types. Like you say, this isn't enough to devalue what he did, or put him a level below the others, but it might explain why you might differentiate him from them on some level.

Yeah, Foley as Mankind was basically the underdog who's going to deal out and take an inhuman amount of punishment, will never give up no matter what but usually ends up losing anyway. His whole gimmick essentially was all about putting people over.

It's pretty amazing to look back and see how over he got with the audience back then...gotta be one of the more unconventional characters to become so universally loved by the crowd,

 

[OverratedSanity]

Bret really is incredibly bitter. I wish he'd let go of Montreal

Bret had it coming tbh. oh boohoo I won't drop it in Montreal, I'll "surrender" the title on Raw... **** you Bret, just drop the title and leave you dumbass.

 

[sledger]

Yeah, Foley as Mankind was basically the underdog who's going to deal out and take an inhuman amount of punishment, will never give up no matter what but usually ends up losing anyway. His whole gimmick essentially was all about putting people over.

It's pretty amazing to look back and see how over he got with the audience back then...gotta be one of the more unconventional characters to become so universally loved by the crowd,

It was similar to what we have with Bryan these days imo. The fans literally just loved him because of who he was and how his story was literally a true underdog story. It's like the complete opposite of X-Pac heat.

 

[andmark]

Bret had it coming tbh. oh boohoo I won't drop it in Montreal, I'll "surrender" the title on Raw... **** you Bret, just drop the title and leave you dumbass.

I can't understand how people think he was such a massive victim in it. If he'd allowed himself to lose to Shawn- as his boss wanted- then the shenanigans from Vince and Shawn wouldn't have been necessary.

 

[sledger]

I can't understand how people think he was such a massive victim in it. If he'd allowed himself to lose to Shawn- as his boss wanted- then the shenanigans from Vince and Shawn wouldn't have been necessary.

I get what you're saying, but this is "ends justifies the means" logic, and it's a bit dodgy to rely on it here. There's no denying that in this whole thing Shawn and Vince behaved like ****s. Bret's behaviour was hardly that of a patron saint, but that shouldn't be used as a basis for implicitly excusing the poor behaviour of all the others involved.