**Official** Pakistan v New Zealand in the UAE 2014

[Dan]

These are my thoughts:

If we simply pick our best bowlers, neither Sodhi nor Craig are anywhere near that list, nor is any NZ spinner.

However, if we go with horses-for-courses (as we did in the Windies and it actually worked out reasonably well for us with both Sodhi and Craig doing a good job); we need to pick either a very tight spinner (Jeets or Vettori, neither of whom are available) or someone who will get turn and bounce out of slow conditions. I would prefer Todd Astle over Sodhi in this regard. I just think a big part of Craig's success in the Windies was down to the quick turn and bounce that was on offer. This is quite different from what we've seen in the UAE. There won't be bounce available nor sharp turn, so the tall finger spinners are highly unlikely to succeed. Short, extremely skilled finger spinners like Herath or Babar have had success but they are very different to Craig.

1. Latham
2. Astle
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. McCullum
6. Anderson/Neesham/Specialist Batsman
7. Watling +
8. Southee
9. Wagner
10. Henry
11. Boult

You know you want to, NZC.

 

[Athlai]

Guppy as specialist spinner is more likely.

 

[Blocky]

It doesn't matter whether Craig is leaking 3.5 an over or Sodhi is leaking 4 per over; neither's building any pressure whatsoever at that point.

I'd take 2/70 off 20 overs versus 1 for 80 - which is about what these two have been in every single one of their matches. Sodhi's average is actually done favours by the fact that McCullum tends to give him a chance at the tail for confidence boosting wickets.


If we're selecting our "this team has a chance at beating Pakistan in UAE" team...

1. Latham
2. Ryder
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. McCullum
6. Neesham
7. Watling
8. NcCullum
9. Southee
10. Wagner
11. Boult.

NcCullum - same first class average as Sodhi and Craig, but 2.89 an over... also more than happy bowling at people trying to take him to pieces, will add in the field and give us some batting at eight, rather than expecting Southee to be able to do it.

Quite frankly, why they're not using NcCullum surprises me considering he's the best of a bad breed of spinners. And at the moment, you simply can't justify selecting both Neesham and Anderson - too similar.

 

[hendrix]

Jeets>>>>>>>>>>>>>>NcCullum.

 

[Flem274*]

NcCullum would be such a Dipak Patel pick though,.No offense to NcCullum but he's not an attacking spinner, which is what we need. Say what you will about Craig, Sodhi, Tastle, Johnston, Jeets etc - they're brave enough to try and be real spinners in a competition that hates them.

this debate is what makes me think it's better just to not play a spinner. Like holy **** they all suck.

Haha yeah was gonna say this. We've produced three test standard spinners in our entire history. We've produced a lot of good pace bowlers, even if only one was an ATG. Let's play to our strengths.

In this hypothetical scenario, we could pick a medium pacer like Aldridge to bowl ten million tight overs and rotate the others around him, or we could go full on attack like Dan picked.

I remember in our 2009 tour of India (the Chris Martin goes ballistic one) Brent Arnel copped heaps of flak for going at 2 an over while bowling forever and ever and only getting one or two wickets. He was too innocuous apparently. Tell you what, in the post-Vettori era a guy who can go at 2 an over and bowl for ages is preferable to the meltdown days of our spinners.

Our struggles make Tastle's dropping look silly in retrospect too. At the time he wasn't quick enough through the air to be a good bowler but he added a lot to the team and did bowl *well*, just his figures would have been a lot better if he had more pace.

If we stick with spin (which we will) then I don't want to throw Craig away too quickly. Yes he's got a lot to work on, but he was hugely influential to a test win 3 games ago with 8/**** all ffs and his lower order partnerships with other players were invaluable. This will sound like heresy but if he's having a meltdown day maybe he should just dart it in. That way we get a containment bowler at worst and a matchwinner at best.

 

[Mike5181]

Tastle this
Sodhi sucks
All our spinners suck
b-but Sodhi's talent
He/she/it won't keep it tight though
wish we had Patel
why select any spin bowler
bowlers aren't robots hendrix
obligatory Dan post with Tastle opening
half a dozen posts of "this won't happen but"


^ I think I've covered nearly all of our positions on this spin debate there.

 

[Flem274*]

seriously though if tastle continues to have a good georgie pie super smash against block bash domestic batsmen, and hits some steak and cheeses into the empty eden park terraces to boot with his newfound casual engine room approach to batting, he'll probably be allowed back in from hessons dog box for something after the public go wild for him.

if he was from ND or otago you could lock it in, but since this is the one era where canterbury is not the province to be..

 

[Immenso]

**** it, I'm not expecting us to win a 3 match series in Asia. So let's just pick 2 spinners as per the conditions and fast track our post-Vettori search for 'the one'.

I'm looking forward to it, variety is the spice of life. Bring Wagner in by the third test once it's gone totally pear shaped, for some run in all day lion-heartedness.

Well, that's what happened in the Caribbean and it didn't even go totally pear shaped.

 

[Blocky]

Jeets>>>>>>>>>>>>>>NcCullum.

See, all those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>'s you're using just remind me of the time that Jeets backed away from the bowlers in a test match, not to mention backed away from selection for a test series.

Todd Astle is really only "considerable" because of his batting prowess, he's another bits and pieces player and we already have two of those in Neesham and Anderson to be factored into the side... so not likely for that to occur.

It's a horses for courses selection - at the moment we're investing in youth in a way that probably won't pay any dividends - it's not like having a young Southee or Boult where you can see the quality and you want to invest. We're not going to see the dividends long term of picking Craig or Sodhi, therefore lets pick a guy who can give us something right now, do a job for us (dart in and hold an end up) and let us have a chance at attacking from the other end... if you said NcCullum - bowl 25-30 overs a day and go for 70 runs, any wickets are a bonus - that means at the other end, you can alternate Wags, Boult, Southee, Anderson until your hearts content and attempt to take wickets.

 

[Kippax]

Jeets backs away from Matt Quinn tbh. "It's the way I play. I try to bat as instinctively as I can" has been trotted out by McCullum for all these years.

 

[Blocky]

**** it, I'm not expecting us to win a 3 match series in Asia. So let's just pick 2 spinners as per the conditions and fast track our post-Vettori search for 'the one'.

I'm looking forward to it, variety is the spice of life. Bring Wagner in by the third test once it's gone totally pear shaped, for some run in all day lion-heartedness.

Well, that's what happened in the Caribbean and it didn't even go totally pear shaped.

No.

The only reason we should ever consider a spin bowler is if that spin bowler is showing signs in domestic competition and/or NZ A competition that they're up to scratch and capable of beating players or doing a job. At the moment, Sodhi and Craig both are not effective at domestic cricket and do not have it in them to do a job. Therefore, don't select either of them.

If you're throwing a hail mary "Let's pick from the youth and see what happens" - then pick someone like Josef Walker who dominated age group until he decided to become a stoner and stopped taking cricket so seriously.

 

[Blocky]

Jeets backs away from Matt Quinn tbh. "It's the way I play. I try to bat as instinctively as I can" has been trotted out by McCullum for all these years.

Difference between making a little bit of room and running off to square leg. It was disgraceful for a guy who has first class tonnes to be doing considering he was playing for his nation. Even Chris Martin held his line.

 

[hendrix]

I don't think NcCullum would be able to hold up an end thought. He'd probably go at 3.5-4 an over if not more.

 

[Kippax]

Jeets still makes his runs for Warwickshire doing that. Made a match-winning 45* against Philander doing that.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Tastle this
Sodhi sucks
All our spinners suck
b-but Sodhi's talent
He/she/it won't keep it tight though
wish we had Patel
why select any spin bowler
bowlers aren't robots hendrix
obligatory Dan post with Tastle opening
half a dozen posts of "this won't happen but"


^ I think I've covered nearly all of our positions on this spin debate there.

Missed out me suggesting Mark Houghton.

 

[Blocky]

I don't think NcCullum would be able to hold up an end thought. He'd probably go at 3.5-4 an over if not more.

Bollocks, considering he bowls tight and effectively in ODI cricket with stricter fielding regulations, the right field and mindset and he could easily come in at under 3 an over - unless the Pakistani's were taking risks to score from him, in which case, as we've seen in T20 and ODI, he becomes a threat for wickets.

 

[hendrix]

#teamblocky #teamjeets.

Some tough life decisions to make. I'm not good at life decisions.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

McCullum goes at 4-5 an over in ODIs with very little risk, which is kinda why he's moderately effective in that format. He's a low-risk, low reward bowler.

The problem is that same strategy doesn't work in tests, he's so easy to milk if you're not trying to smash it.

 

[hendrix]

Bollocks, considering he bowls tight and effectively in ODI cricket with stricter fielding regulations, the right field and mindset and he could easily come in at under 3 an over - unless the Pakistani's were taking risks to score from him, in which case, as we've seen in T20 and ODI, he becomes a threat for wickets.

Come on, giving up the single and going at 5 an over is more than acceptable in LO cricket. Completely different game for a spinner.

 

[Athlai]

Yeah keeping it tight in the longer form is all about keeping "pressure".

NcCullum is by no means a mug with the ball but he'll never stop the batsman from rotating the strike in the Test format.