***Official*** Pakistan in England

[Gloucefan]

This reminds me of the Lebanon thread, where we had page after page of 99% of people using one definition and one person making an argument out of a different definition. No one is or has ever tried to put Monty and Murali on the same plane, so stop trying to manufacture discord from nothing. The debate here is Monty v Harbhajan v Vettori.

No the debate includes Murali if you want to give him that title, I'm not trying to 'manufacture discord from nothing' I simply tried to make quite a simple point. Murali is the best finger spinner in the world and then it's Harbhajan. Monty has not been in enough difficult scenarios for anyone to possibly give him such an accolade even if Murali didn't exist, despite the wickets he has taken he hasn't done nearly enough to warrant that kind of praise.

 

[Jono]

Out of interest - compare Harbhajan and Monty's records against Pakistan...

Bit harsh on Bhajji though considering the pitces in the 1st and 2nd test in the last Ind/Pak series. I think even Monty would have struggled on those

 

[Sanz]

No one counts Murali as a finger-spinner - it makes debating pointless!

Out of interest - compare Harbhajan and Monty's records against Pakistan...

And this guy calls Indian fans as Terrace fans or something.

What next - Compare Monty's records against Pakistan with Bedi's ?

 

[Sanz]

It's very odd that the best players of spin just happen to forget how to bat and decide to throw their wicket away as soon as they face him, isn't it?

With all due respect, Pakistanis aren't really the best players of spin.

 

[adharcric]

I would say only Yousuf and Younis are really good against spin in the current Pakistani lineup. Inzi is decent but better against pace.

 

[marc71178]

Murali is the best finger spinner in the world and then it's Harbhajan.

And where does Murali get most of his turn from, it's not his fingers.

 

[honestbharani]

75% of the work where did you get that info?

He does use his wrist but its still effectively a finger spinners action all be it not an orthodox one.

by watching him. You can almost NEVER predict a finger spinner off his hands. But I distinctly remember Lara talking about reading Murali's deliveries off his hands, same was echoed by Martyn, Ponting and Lehmann as well. For eg., Shane Warne bowls his flipper using his thumb and index finger, and his googly using his little finger and his normal leggie he releases with his usual action. Does all this make him a finger spinner? Murali himself has often mentioned how much he relies on his wrists to impart the spin. That is the reason why there was a big research into how only the wrist spinners impart BIG spin on the ball. You never see a finger spinner turn the ball as much as Warney or Murali do. Prasanna talked about how covering the pitches was a major draw back for finger spinners because it basically cut down their spin, more than anything else.



To put it all down very simply, your wrists are more flexible than your fingers and therefore, when u are using your wrists to impart most of the spin to the ball, you get bigger turn than when u do when u use your fingers more than the wrists to spin the ball.

 

[JBH001]

Yer, Murali vs Monty is a dead before you open your mouths conversation.

I figure Murali to be an unorthodox spinner but still a finger spinner.
However it is also likely that Fletcher was thinking of orthodox finger spinners and really Monty can only be compared to Harbhajab and Vettori at this stage.

IMO, it is still too early to tell and the English media should not be putting too much pressure on him or expecting miracles out of him. Thats a recipe for disaster and if it were to come crashing down the self - same media hacks would be standing around the corpse putting the boot in. It has been less than a year and a good beginning - that is all.

Therefore I believe Vettori and Harbhajan to still be superior finger spinners. Though that said, Monty is in good company as both of them are very good spinners.

Regarding the averages discussion, as I said earlier elsewhere, an average of 30 - 35 is very good for a finger spinner. The averages of most great finger spinners being around the 28 - 32 mark, or thereabouts. If Monty is after a comparatively few tests, and those against quality opposition, already on the right side of 35 he has done very well indeed.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I personally wouldn't even include Harbhajan as an orthodox finger spinner; he does bowl a doosra, after all.

If one excludes him & Murali I don't think Big Dunc's call is absolutely outrageous. Vettori is a decent player (& clearly would contribute more to a team overall), but he's never really done much in games against us & seems to have dropped off a little in terms of performance since he started having issues with his back.

After him, well Boje is steady at best, Gilo a threat when the pitch turns but primarily used over the wicket as a containment, Powar potentially quite good but needs a run in the test side, Rafique worthy but ageing & after them the cupboard really is bare.

 

[JBH001]

Why does having a doosra make a finger spinner unorthodox?
Isn't that like saying that googly bowling leggies are unorthodox leg spinners?

[Edit] Also, as I said regarding Panesar. It is still too early to tell though age and talent is on his side - a lot will hinge on how teams play him when they come up against him again and he has lost the surprise factor. Though Pakistan do not seem to have learned anything - but that, no offense intended, is really not all that surprising.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Why does having a doosra make a finger spinner unorthodox?
Isn't that like saying that googly bowling leggies are unorthodox leg spinners?

[Edit] Also, as I said regarding Panesar. It is still too early to tell though age and talent is on his side - a lot will hinge on how teams play him when they come up against him again and he has lost the surprise factor. Though Pakistan do not seem to have learned anything - but that, no offense intended, is really not all that surprising.

It's a fair point you make, but as the doosra is still in its infancy as a delivery (& of, say we say, potentially doubtful provenance anyway) I personally tend to view spinners who bowl one as the exceptions rather than the norm; hence unorthodox as opposed to orthodox.

&, regarding wrist-spinners, they're all unorthodox anyway, the whole bunch of them! () In career profiles left-arm finger spinners are sometimes noted as "orthodox" (take our own vic) to differentiate then from over-the-wrist southpaws.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

&, regarding wrist-spinners, they're all unorthodox anyway, the whole bunch of them! () In career profiles left-arm finger spinners are sometimes noted as "orthodox" (take our own vic) to differentiate then from over-the-wrist southpaws.

Wisden also distinguishes leg-break (LB) from leg-break googly (LBG) in their career records.

 

[Beleg]

Okay. Panesar has played, what, 9 tests so far and people are already comparing him to Harbajhan and Vettori.

He failed spectecularly in India. Stepped up a notch against Sri Lanka and continued in the same vein against Pakistan. I am not even certain he is better then Giles.

Fletcher is smocking crack.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Okay. Panesar has played, what, 9 tests so far and people are already comparing him to Harbajhan and Vettori.

He failed spectecularly in India. Stepped up a notch against Sri Lanka and continued in the same vein against Pakistan. I am not even certain he is better then Giles.

Fletcher is smocking crack.

You'll have to trust me on this one; as a spinner Monty is several notches above Gilo.

& he did manage to dismiss Tendulkar, Dravid, Kaif & Jaffer in his debut series. Not bad for a "spectacular failure".

 

[GIMH]

Okay. Panesar has played, what, 9 tests so far and people are already comparing him to Harbajhan and Vettori.

He failed spectecularly in India. Stepped up a notch against Sri Lanka and continued in the same vein against Pakistan. I am not even certain he is better then Giles.

Fletcher is smocking crack.

No, he didn't; he was our most economical bowler in the drawn first Test, and bowled reasonably well in the first two generally. The second innings of the third Test was where he fell down a little bit, he seemed to lose control, but it is the only time he really has so far.

 

[Gloucefan]

I personally wouldn't even include Harbhajan as an orthodox finger spinner; he does bowl a doosra, after all.

If one excludes him & Murali I don't think Big Dunc's call is absolutely outrageous...

No but it would be completely meaningless.

 

[BoyBrumby]

No but it would be completely meaningless.

Not really. He's just saying Monty is the best of a limited bunch. Orthodox finger spinners are something of a dying breed at international level.

Although, interestingly, in today's Mirror Monty does say he's working on a wrong 'un of his own.

"I still have got a lot to learn. I am working on my version of the doosra - a ball which turns the other way - but we will just have to see what happens with it. As I gradually add things, it is one of my ambitions to be the best. It would be nice once day to be recognised as that."

Full article here: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/crick...reat-spinner---it-s-my-destiny-name_page.html

 

[GIMH]

Yeah in the Sunday times he said that he bowled it a couple of times in championship matches, but never tried it on the international scene. He should use the dead rubber to try it out a couple of times!

 

[Tomm NCCC]

Sure, were all laughing now, but the ODI's are just around the corner...

 

[GIMH]

eh?