***Official*** New Zealand in South Africa

[Blaze]

Well I just don't know what to think. First thing we have to do is get that last wicket for next to no runs and then we can't lose any more than 3 wickets to the new ball.

 

[TT Boy]

You really think Prince is one of the 6th best batsmen in SA? He is not even close. He is no longer a young man and he has been given more opportunities than many to develop at the lower level.

Will never be more than an average test cricketer. Will finish his career with a batting average of under 35.

The guy has been on borrowed time for too long and his position needs desperately addressing, failures against Australia could be deemed acceptable but if you average just 35 in test cricket today, then I’m afraid you should be up for the drop. In Prince’s defence though the pitches this summer in South Africa have been tough to bat on and other than Ricky Ponting most batsman have continually struggled and never looked that conceiving (although AB and Jacob Oram did much to disprove such a notion).

But their is options to the South Africans selectors, I don’t know what Neil McKenzie has to do to get another go, had a fantastic Supersport series and has already hit a century against the New Zealanders this summer. If McKenzie is not the one for the selectors than Hashim Amla and Jean Paul Duminy would do a better than job than Prince IMO.

 

[TT Boy]

Well I just don't know what to think. First thing we have to do is get that last wicket for next to no runs and then we can't lose any more than 3 wickets to the new ball.

I think New Zealand have a pretty good chance of winning this game still because other than Makhaya Ntini whose going to get the wickets for South Africa? They can't just rely on Ntini and the New Zealand top order being so accommodating again. Boje and Pollock will have to step it up, especially Boje who was shockingly bad in the first innings and was shown up by his captain. Who came on and on bowling his fourth delivery did something Boje never managed or looked likely of doing, turning a ball and beating the bat.

 

[TT Boy]

Pollock was another shocker of a decision from Harper.

His been awful but Mark Benson has a good game, got nearly everything correct.

 

[TT Boy]

grrrr AB de Villiers just misses out his century..
i thought he couldn't control himself from playin a shot or two.. He seemed to be in 5th gear since the arrival of Boje..

His third dismissal in the 90's I believe but It was a cracking innings though, absolutely faultless (if you discount his brain fart against Daniel Vettori when he was in the 20s).

 

[marc71178]

But he doesn't average over 40. He averages in the mid-30's.

In the last 4 years?

It's over 40 once the 4 gimme Tests are taken into account.

 

[marc71178]

Ooh if only Giles had been fit for India, you wouldn't have been saying that then.

A fully fit Giles wouldn't have averaged 40 in India or Pakistan.

Somehow Panesar averaged 62 yet has come out of the tour smelling of roses...

 

[TT Boy]

A fully fit Giles wouldn't have averaged 40 in India or Pakistan.

For sure, it would be somewhere near 60.

 

[Loony BoB]

A fully fit Giles doesn't average under 30 in any country in the world. Daniel Vettori averages better in Giles' home nation than Giles does by over 10 runs per wicket.

EDIT: Corrected.

 

[marc71178]

A fully fit Giles doesn't average under 30 in any country in the world. Daniel Vettori averages better in Giles' home nation than Giles does by over 10 runs per wicket.

EDIT: Corrected.

Sorry but what has Giles got to with the discussion that Vettori's bowling isn't actually that good?

Unless of course an average over 40 for the last 4 years is what you're looking for?

 

[Blaze]

Can we please keep this on topic. We all know that Giles is one of Marc's favourites and he won't change his view. (here's a tip marc - watch them both bowl and tell me who looks more threatening)


Who is everybody tipping from here? I think we have the advantage if we can get this last wicket early.

From there it will be up to the middle order to all get at least 20 each.

 

[Loony BoB]

I'm going to go against what the Sky commentators seem to think and say that I think NZ can chase those runs down. Would be another record broken for NZ as our highest overseas run chase - but this is the team that has broken so many other NZ records so I don't see why this can't be added on.

 

[Ming]

Marc, if statistics were the only criteria for picking teams, you would be picking the teams. But the thing is that that's not the case, and that's why you aren't selecting World XIs etc. Vettori was picked in the World XI, and must have been at least a bit of a good bowler to do so?

 

[Ming]

Most definitely shouldn't have done when the likes of Kumble did not. You'd have to be extremely biased to claim he's anywhere near the class of Kumble.

Is there really no other Kiwi bowler capable of averaging under 40?

You are a joke, honestly.

Look at his career record, average of 35 for a NZ finger spinner is pretty good indeed. It's well documented that his career took a set back with those green pitches in NZ a few years ago, but ever since, he's been playing quite well.

Who gives that he has averaged 40 in his past 4 years or whatever? The thing is, he's been doing very well of late, averaging 30 in his past ten bowling innings which is great. Good enough for him to be picked in a World XI ahead of Ashley Giles who wasn't anywhere near the selection table.

 

[Ming]

Even those figures are extremely misleading because of Ban/Zim (4 games)

Remove those games and we have: 946 runs @ 32.62, 53 wickets @ 48.04.

Meh. Changing statistics to suit your argument, typical.

How about you remove all the Bangladesh and Zimb Tests from all players' records and see how Vettori rates then eh?

Wait...is this the Bangladesh country that nearly beat Australia? Surely not eh Marc...

 

[Blaze]

Go Ming lol

But there is no way he should have been in the World XI Test side. He deserved inclusion in the ODI side though.

 

[luckyeddie]

You are a joke, honestly.

Look at his career record, average of 35 for a NZ finger spinner is pretty good indeed. It's well documented that his career took a set back with those green pitches in NZ a few years ago, but ever since, he's been playing quite well.

Who gives that he has averaged 40 in his past 4 years or whatever? The thing is, he's been doing very well of late, averaging 30 in his past ten bowling innings which is great. Good enough for him to be picked in a World XI ahead of Ashley Giles who wasn't anywhere near the selection table.

Vettori - good enough to be picked for a World XI ahead of Giles - technically, you could say that was true.

In truth, though, he made the side because he was a Kiwi, purely and simply, and they had to have some representation from your fair land in the World XI.

 

[Loony BoB]

I think he deserved to be in the World XI ODI side (and hey, he was the only consistent performer in that side), but not the World XI Test side. Still better than Giles, though.

 

[luckyeddie]

I think he deserved to be in the World XI ODI side (and hey, he was the only consistent performer in that side), but not the World XI Test side. Still better than Giles, though.

Still probably better than anyone else from New Zealand too.

You've seen the eagerness with which the Poms (with the exception of one or two notable exceptions) have leaped to champion Monty Panesar at the expense of Giles - precisely the same level of wishful thinking.

Two spinners (Vettori and Giles) who in years gone by might have struggled to make an average county side - but such is the dearth of quality in the twirly department in our respective countries, they seem to be the best we've got and at the moment, in the international sides. Whose fault is that?

Answer - every other spinner in England or New Zealand who are 'less good'.

 

[Loony BoB]

Also partially the fault of those people who set up the pitches. I should know this word, but it escapes me at the moment. NZ have never had spinner-friendly wickets as far as I know. Who's the best spinner in NZ history, I wonder...

EDIT: Holy crap, Franklin has the 6th best bowling average in NZ test history. ...that's kind of sad, really.

EDIT: Going by NZ's test averages, Vettori is actually the best all-time spinner NZ has had, narrowly beating Stephen Boock, who took 74 wickets at an average of 34.64 in 30 tests from 1978 to 1989.