*Official** New Zealand in England

[Loony BoB]

dont get me wrong here....cairns is IMO the best allrounder since the bothams, imrans etc. but i think its fairly clear that hes only half the bowler he used to be. he no longer has the pace to worry batsman and therefore doesnt have the edge he used to have anymore. you can bring up his bowling average over the last 10 tests but the fact is his last 10 tests extend right uptil 2000-2001.
he failed to pick up a wicket against pakistan and averaged 32 against SA with the ball.

Just because his bowling isn't at it's prime doesn't mean his all round ability isn't. An average of 32 isn't that far off his average of previous years and his batting is improving every year. Also, an average of 32 isn't that bad considering that's below the (combined) average score of the South African batsmen on that tour.

Cairns is still very much in his prime as an all round cricket player, which is what I assume we are all talking about. If we're talking about bowlers, forget Pollock, Kallis, Cairns and Flintoff - Murali, Warne and McGrath are who we should be talking about.

 

[PY]

If he is improving all the time, why is he retiring then?

Even accounting for his injuries, if he was still getting better then he would be a nutcase to retire.

 

[Loony BoB]

If he is improving all the time, why is he retiring then?

Even accounting for his injuries, if he was still getting better then he would be a nutcase to retire.

He wants to spend more time with his family - you can't really argue with that.

 

[tooextracool]

He wants to spend more time with his family - you can't really argue with that.

nah thats just an excuse, almost everyone who retires says that these days

 

[anzac]

but i think its fairly clear that hes only half the bowler he used to be. he no longer has the pace to worry batsman and therefore doesnt have the edge he used to have anymore. he failed to pick up a wicket against pakistan and averaged 32 against SA with the ball.

ahem - he's yet to complete a full international summer since his run of injuries began in 2001 - makes it a bit hard to tell exactly where his bowling is at, just that it isn't as good as when he got injured. I think this is the first time since injury that I can recall him playing in 3 consecutive series - and his bowling is actually improving with each series........so if this trend continues he may be able to finish his career in some form with both bat & ball...

from memory v RSA in the last Test he was bowling quicker than Martin - so maybe his average speed has decreased but he can still get it around 140ish....

The PAK series doesn't really count being his first test series for 2 years???? & v RSA he didn't really appear comfortable until after he got that 200th wicket - since then the bowling has looked more relaxed & like he is now enjoying it & looks a different bowler - the figures have improved accordingly........

 

[anzac]

nah thats just an excuse, almost everyone who retires says that these days

he's 34, starting a family, got his own business outside cricket, made his name & money & seen the world & not likely to set / achieve any further goals within the years left available in the game now that he has his 200th wicket he has nothing more to prove & his place in history is assured & wants to go out with 1 good last season under his belt & gets to finish in ENG where it began for him outside NZ.............

sounds fair enough to me.............

riddle me this Batman - as a comparisson whose last hurrah is the more memorable so far - Kirsten or Cairns..............I know which way I'd like to bow out in a series..............

 

[tooextracool]

ahem - he's yet to complete a full international summer since his run of injuries began in 2001 - makes it a bit hard to tell exactly where his bowling is at, just that it isn't as good as when he got injured. I think this is the first time since injury that I can recall him playing in 3 consecutive series - and his bowling is actually improving with each series........so if this trend continues he may be able to finish his career in some form with both bat & ball...

from memory v RSA in the last Test he was bowling quicker than Martin - so maybe his average speed has decreased but he can still get it around 140ish....

The PAK series doesn't really count being his first test series for 2 years???? & v RSA he didn't really appear comfortable until after he got that 200th wicket - since then the bowling has looked more relaxed & like he is now enjoying it & looks a different bowler - the figures have improved accordingly........

point is if i had to choose between cairns and flintoff ATM id choose flintoff regardless of whether cairns is fully match fit yet or not. if i had to make this decision 5 years earlier then it would be different.

 

[anzac]

point is if i had to choose between cairns and flintoff ATM id choose flintoff regardless of whether cairns is fully match fit yet or not. if i had to make this decision 5 years earlier then it would be different.

fair enough - the decision may not be so clear cut by the end of the series - here's hoping......

 

[marc71178]

Streak is a much better bowler. He has never had any support but has still taken his wickets cheaply

Career average in the high 20s is not cheaply.

Flintoff cannot take wickets cheaply even though the England bowlers are better and has never been among the top 30 bowlers.

And his bowling is so much better than the figures say

 

[marc71178]

and you may note that this century is his highest score of 158 and was against a full strength South African bowling attack.

Although he did seem to get a fair few runs against the part-timers in that knock...

 

[a massive zebra]

Career average in the high 20s is not cheaply.

Gough and Caddick did not take their wickets cheaply then.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Gough and Caddick did not take their wickets cheaply then.

Rocket science award of the day...

 

[anzac]

and now back to the cricket..........

good to see the NZL bowlers emulate their ENG counterparts & rise to the occaision in the morning session...............

good to see Martin get 3 scalps & his RPO conceed is better than Harmison or Jones...........

can anyone tell me if he was bowling from the same end as yesterday - uphill????

if memory serves didn't his bowling follow the same pattern in his 1st test back v RSA - ****e first day in the field & then impact 2nd morning??????

 

[anzac]

in answer to an earlier question - I'm pretty sure McCullum has been opening for CANT this season in the 4 day games with Papps...........not sure where he batted previously...........

 

[Loony BoB]

Although he did seem to get a fair few runs against the part-timers in that knock...

That's not really an argument, and if it is then I think it's a poor one. You can say that about almost any decent knock against any team. It's not Cairns' choice who bowls to him, and it's not a fault to know how to hit a part-timer for six and to block the ball of an in-form bowler who's going for the stumps. That's smart cricket, and any decent batsman would do the same. Regardless of what happened, he hit a lot of runs from only a few more balls, and he did it well.

anzac: Martin was bowling from both ends today, I believe...

 

[marc71178]

He probably did it in his usual style.

And the bowler argument is relevant - because if it were part-timers bowling that isn't the full strength attack!

 

[anzac]

anzac: Martin was bowling from both ends today, I believe...

righto - just curious..........

it was mentioned previously that he seemed to loose his rythmn bowling up the rise - just wondered if he had rectified that or if his wickets came from the other end.............

and again wondering what his wrist, seam & release were like...........

I see that Tuffey took a bit of stick re his RPO conceeded - unlike him in recent series

could all the bowlers from both teams have struggled moreso from one end & then lost their rythmn & carried this over to the other - hence the reason for the better performances on their 2nd day after having a chance to go away & sleep on it?????

 

[Loony BoB]

He probably did it in his usual style.

And the bowler argument is relevant - because if it were part-timers bowling that isn't the full strength attack!

I would hope yesterday's show proved he's still capable, in that case. But again, it's not his fault that the poor bowlers came along... although if most of his runs came from part timers, that's mighty strange. Don't international captains know how to take a part timer out of the attack if he's getting smashed? Sounds logical to me...

Hmm. *checks*

Okay, here's the stats for his 158.

CL Cairns.........0s...1s...2s...3s...4s...6s...Runs...Balls...RP6B
v SM Pollock......13....6....0....0....7....0.....34......26...7.85
v M Ntini..........8....5....1....0....1....1.....17......16...6.38
v DJ Terbrugge....14....3....0....0....4....0.....19......21...5.43
v JH Kallis.......20....5....1....0....4....0.....25......31...4.84
v N Boje..........22...11....1....0....1....3.....35......38...5.53
v JA Rudolph......23....3....0....0....0....3.....21......29...4.34
v GC Smith.........6....3....0....0....1....0......7......10...4.20
Total............106....36...4....0...18....7....158......171..5.54
I wouldn't say it's all that bad. In fact, Pollock and Ntini were punished more than anyone!

 

[Loony BoB]

To be fair to the bowlers, anzac, I don't feel that they were ever really out of the game. Both batting and bowling teams have had pretty equal luck in this test. Tuffey just hasn't really managed to come up with anything - there's always the possibility that he and Harmison were targeted for aggression by their opposing teams, as Harmy suffered a little when it comes to eco-rate at the start of the first day (er, if memory serves me well), but performed well against the lower order batsmen who aren't able to do as much in the ways of targetted aggression.

 

[Tim]

Well I thought we were in serious trouble yesterday evening, but to only conceed a 50 run lead wasn't too bad in the end. And then to erase it with only 1 wicket & with Brendon McCullum batting at #3 has been a really good fightback.

Styris showed a few critics that he's a handy bowler...and he mopped up the tail quickly which helped the cause.

While Cairns is still batting well, I think it's the bowling side which has forced him to retire..he's just too expensive really.