*Official** New Zealand in England

[tooextracool]

Marc, I think Kiwi cricket fans are pretty worldly these days to be honest. If an English seamer came here fresh from 3 consecutive five-fers against SA, I'd like to think we'd give him more than a couple of 10º days in Timaru to prove himself.

kiwi fans also tend to overate their players....oram the best all rounder in the world?jeez and murali was the best batsmen in 2003(well he did average more than tendulkar!)

 

[Neil Pickup]

would pollock make it into the test side on his batting alone?or would kallis make it into the side on his bowling alone?
those arent genuine all rounders, they are bowlers who can bat a bit and vice versa,not genuine all rounders...i dont care how exceptional kallis' batting has been, if he doesnt get enough wickets,hes not an all rounder.

Oram wouldn't make it on either!

 

[PY]

I think it'll be an interesting battle between Flintoff and Oram for the all-rounder of the series title.

Flintoff has had something about him this WI series I think where he is close to clicking into place with his batting. His bowling will always be an enigma to me as he is a lot better bowler than his average portrays (see ODI rankings).

I can't wait to be honest.

 

[tooextracool]

As usual Marc, you're out with the knives forgetting that Oram has only played a year of test cricket so far.

precisely why he shouldnt be rated so highly either...

 

[tooextracool]

His bowling will always be an enigma to me as he is a lot better bowler than his average portrays (see ODI rankings).

his action prevents him from getting any real swing or seam movement,hes a bang it in sort of bowler, hence preventing him from being too effective at the test match level. the best he can hope for is to be deadly accurate...which is what he seems to be doing quite well.

 

[Loony BoB]

I don't know about you, but with a batting average of 42.5 and a bowling average of 26.41, I'd say you're a good all rounder. Anyone with a batting average that's higher than their bowling average should be considered a good all rounder. I guess you could say that Oram is a bowling batsman? Because if England had one of their players averaging 42.5 and 26.41, they would have articles in the paper about them, too. And certain Englishmen in these forums would be going on about them.

And if you're going to count people out for not having been around long enough, then Harmison must be one of the most overrated players in the world right now. Didn't you guys rave on about Anderson a year or two ago when he became the answer to all your problems? I don't know for sure, but I think I read a few things that said something like that.

I rate Harmison, Anderson, Flintoff and Oram all as world class players, because they are able to get into a side and they are able to do well in their side and their sides do well in the world. To say any of them are overrated, in my opinion, is wishful thinking on the behalf of the opposition. I'm sure Fleming and Vaughan are taking their opposition very, very seriously.

Regardless of what wickets they played their games on or whatever, they've played against opposition and they've stood out of the crowd in a successful team. They've scored centuries and they've taken wickets. To think Flintoff or Oram need to be the best bowler or batter in their team is nonsense.

EDIT: On a sidenote, Chris Cairns averaged around 30 with his bowling and around 33 with his batting. Would you say that Cairns was not a quality all rounder, either?

 

[marc71178]

I don't know about you, but with a batting average of 42.5 and a bowling average of 26.41, I'd say you're a good all rounder.

Yes, if that's over a 3 or 4 year career or so.

As it stands he's had one good series with the ball, 1 superb series with the bat, and another good one.

It'll be interesting to see how he develops in the side - number 6 and 4th seamer anyone?

 

[PY]

Hick is putting NZ to the sword at the moment. 140* from 150 balls with 23 fours and 4 sixes.

Such a waste of talent

Martin is going for over 6 an over and Bond is going for just under 5.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Or at least we think he is, anyway.

He's already been at 173* once this morning before falling back to 90*, and he's now apparently made 50 in half an hour.

Either way, it ain't bad.

 

[PY]

CricInfo gone nuts again and attributing a triple century to Hick from 280 balls.

SkySports is usually reliable and they say:

Worcs 313/6 (66.3 overs)

Hick 203* (198 balls) 27 fours and 8 sixes.
Rhodes 5* (25)

This is depressing me because of Hick being older and still being able to do that but why couldn't he do it for England?

 

[Neil Pickup]

Hick has gone from 203* off 198 to 301* off 285 in around two minutes, according to Cricinfo!

What is wrong with their software?!

 

[tooextracool]

This is depressing me because of Hick being older and still being able to do that but why couldn't he do it for England?

hick 238no off 228 .NZ 37/1.
yea it is depressing to see someone play like that and not be part of the english side....i always thought that hick was unlucky... that he never got a long enough stint with the side. he had incredible talent and was one of the few players who could actually pick shane warne in those sad 90s. which is why when all those injuries kept showing up on their last tour of australia, i was hoping that hick would get the call.

on a side note surely papps isnt going to be in the starting lineup for the first test.

 

[Kent]

Heck, we've been absolutely smashed overnight!

Don't tell any Poms that was just about our first-choice attack for Lord's. Only a day or two ago I was scoffing at the oldies like Jack Russell and Graeme Hick who were still shuffling around, picking up a pension on the county circuit.

 

[Kent]

kiwi fans also tend to overate their players....oram the best all rounder in the world?jeez and murali was the best batsmen in 2003(well he did average more than tendulkar!)

To be fair, I don't think you'd hear any Kiwis over 15 make that claim seriously ATM.

There was a feeling amongst the SA media that the lesser-known names like Styris and Oram ambushed SA with their quality of play, and that the team would leave with a lot more respect for the names underneath the Flemings, Cairns, and Bonds (aside from Papps, who they thought was pretty one-dimensional and will be easily worked out on the international scene).

The SA players predicted Oram would eventually be the best player in a pretty strong NZ side.

 

[marc71178]

Heck, we've been absolutely smashed overnight!

Don't tell any Poms that was just about our first-choice attack for Lord's.

Vettori seems to have ensured he'll play - considering the carnage from Hick, that's top figures.

 

[Grubb]

Must have been quite an innings by Hick. Bracewell's called him a flat-track bully in the past, so I think he's made his point!

I must say though that there is a great deal of papp smeared throughout this thread! I'm tempted to get stuck into some of the Brits who've been writing in here, but they've never shown NZ respect in the past, so I guess we shouldn't expect anything very different now. Even if we were to beat them again they'd still be saying the same things.

I never like to talk the kiwis up, as I would've had to eat my words on too many occasions past, but I think we've got a few good years to look forward to, barring any Ken Rutherfordisms.

Good news from the Xtramsn.nz site. In an interview, McCullum told the radio sport joker that Bond doesn't appear to have lost any pace, so am glad to hear that.

 

[PY]

I must say though that there is a great deal of papp smeared throughout this thread! I'm tempted to get stuck into some of the Brits who've been writing in here.

Go for it.

Any examples of our biased nature? I'm all for people putting us in our place.
After all, we are arrogant.

PS Is that a pun involving Papps?

 

[Kent]

Vettori seems to have ensured he'll play - considering the carnage from Hick, that's top figures.

Maybe, but at whose expense?

The way Bond has been written up, it may give the England side a significant boost if we leave him out now.

On the other hand, my pal Chris Martin hasn't exactly covered himself in glory. It would be hard to imagine NZ dropping someone if he'd scored 3 centuries against SA in his last 2 tests though. NZers still talk about Rodney Redmond more than 30 years on!

 

[Loony BoB]

To be honest, the way people raved about Martin after one good series reminded me of Harmison - You can never be too careful with bowlers. Of course, I don't not believe that they can make it, I just tend to put a bit more caution in place. It's good to see Vettori taking wickets - I wonder if he's finally going to pull something out of the bag after such a drought of wickets. That would be interesting, after all the talk about not needing many/any spinners.

Otherwise, I remember Hick from way back, although I didn't know where at first - turns out he's played in domestic cricket in NZ as well as Aussie and the UK, so that's probably what rang the bells (if not an English tour of the past). Bloody impressive innings, and I'm glad he's not in the English national squad.

I'm looking forward to the tests. This looks like it's going to be really close, even the betting odds aren't favouring any team.

 

[anzac]

Maybe, but at whose expense?

The way Bond has been written up, it may give the England side a significant boost if we leave him out now.

On the other hand, my pal Chris Martin hasn't exactly covered himself in glory. It would be hard to imagine NZ dropping someone if he'd scored 3 centuries against SA in his last 2 tests though. NZers still talk about Rodney Redmond more than 30 years on!

I still maintain it is too soon for Bond - if he had gone on with it in the 2nd innings then backed it up in the next game b4 the test - ok...........if he is still able to perform in the next match - maybe..........but currently I'd place Vettori in the team ahead of him.............

Martin still gets a start because he is the current wicket taking bowler at international level, and he could be a slow starter as Tuffey is known to be...........should he 'fail' in the test and Bond continues to improve then perhaps the situation could change........