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*Official** New Zealand in England
- Thread starter Craig
- Start date
To me it'd be a bit like John McEnroe playing challenger tournaments or something. He may still be good enough to, but what's really the point? It's hardly going to be a career highlight or a step forward.Mingster said:
Who would I have? Well, in terms of guys at the shortest odds to feature in a test match at some time in the coming years, you'd look at Taylor and H. Marshall. Harris would be at more than 50/1 to play another test IMO.
I know you have valid arguments for why my suggestions don't deserve it, but it all comes back to the philosophy of having the games in the first place. Considering how few will care about the team's results (the games apparently clash with the SA tests), I'd lean more towards examining potential than selecting strictly on merit.
I'm going to make a call now & say that Astle should NOT go to England, as he is not fit enough to play in the 'A' ODI series.......
with only a few weeks until they go IMO there is not enough time for him to continue to recover & get any match play b4 the tour - with only 14 players in the squad there is not enough room to carry him while he tries to gain form in the opening 3 tour matches.........
similar reasoning to apply to any other player not 100 % fit - Bond, Tuffey, Butler included.......
this series is going to be tough enough as it is without having the extra handicap of players who are not 100%..........
with only a few weeks until they go IMO there is not enough time for him to continue to recover & get any match play b4 the tour - with only 14 players in the squad there is not enough room to carry him while he tries to gain form in the opening 3 tour matches.........
similar reasoning to apply to any other player not 100 % fit - Bond, Tuffey, Butler included.......
this series is going to be tough enough as it is without having the extra handicap of players who are not 100%..........
I'm also leaning away from Macca as a first choice starter in the Test team, because of his inconsistency.
IMO he will probably be selected and start in the series, but he needs to produce the sort of innings he did in Auckland on a regular basis - not just the score but the manner in which he achieved it..........
IMO the England batting lineup is more condusive to playing long innings than their NZ counterparts. Anyone from Trescothick, Vaughan, Butcher, Hussain & Thorpe have all shown the ability to put together a long / big innings, whereas NZ have no where near that sort of depth or consistency. NZ at this stage would appear to be scoring quickly, but still remains potentially brittle.
For this reason I would like to see either Sinclair start at No4 ahead of Styris, or Vincent at No5 & either in place of Macca in a 5 man batting lineup. Sinclair has the better credentials for a long innings of substance but can be a slow starter. Vincent can keep the scoreboard ticking over with singles.
Another outside option could be Marshall, but I doubt he has done enough in the 'A' series Tests to be a genuine contender for a place in the 14 man party for this tour........
I'd like to see B Martin as the only spin bowler (I don't think they will need any more & I think Vettori needs a break to get himself sorted), but I doubt it as Wiseman has had more success in the 'A' series........
I also think Franklin must be in the running ahead of Mills & Mason for the Test party & he adds a lot of depth to the batting lineup.
A lot will depend on the injury to Tuffey, how Bond pulls up after the 'A' ODIs, and if Cairns retires or not.......so far as the squad selections are concerned.........
IMO he will probably be selected and start in the series, but he needs to produce the sort of innings he did in Auckland on a regular basis - not just the score but the manner in which he achieved it..........
IMO the England batting lineup is more condusive to playing long innings than their NZ counterparts. Anyone from Trescothick, Vaughan, Butcher, Hussain & Thorpe have all shown the ability to put together a long / big innings, whereas NZ have no where near that sort of depth or consistency. NZ at this stage would appear to be scoring quickly, but still remains potentially brittle.
For this reason I would like to see either Sinclair start at No4 ahead of Styris, or Vincent at No5 & either in place of Macca in a 5 man batting lineup. Sinclair has the better credentials for a long innings of substance but can be a slow starter. Vincent can keep the scoreboard ticking over with singles.
Another outside option could be Marshall, but I doubt he has done enough in the 'A' series Tests to be a genuine contender for a place in the 14 man party for this tour........
I'd like to see B Martin as the only spin bowler (I don't think they will need any more & I think Vettori needs a break to get himself sorted), but I doubt it as Wiseman has had more success in the 'A' series........
I also think Franklin must be in the running ahead of Mills & Mason for the Test party & he adds a lot of depth to the batting lineup.
A lot will depend on the injury to Tuffey, how Bond pulls up after the 'A' ODIs, and if Cairns retires or not.......so far as the squad selections are concerned.........
Craig
World Traveller
I think taking 14 people to England will work if they have say 5 standby players playing league cricket in England.
What if McCullum gets injured before a Test? Do we want Papps keeping throughout a Test? If anything he is part-time.
What if a couple of players get injured and there is 12 fit players availble?
It isnt that easy to get Jamie How in with the click of the fingers. If this were Australia, not a problem, but in England it can be.
What if McCullum gets injured before a Test? Do we want Papps keeping throughout a Test? If anything he is part-time.
What if a couple of players get injured and there is 12 fit players availble?
It isnt that easy to get Jamie How in with the click of the fingers. If this were Australia, not a problem, but in England it can be.
Mingster
State Regular
McMillan may be inconsistent in the ODIs, but he has a very respectable Test average of over 41.anzac said:I'm also leaning away from Macca as a first choice starter in the Test team, because of his inconsistency.
IMO he will probably be selected and start in the series, but he needs to produce the sort of innings he did in Auckland on a regular basis - not just the score but the manner in which he achieved it..........
IMO the England batting lineup is more condusive to playing long innings than their NZ counterparts. Anyone from Trescothick, Vaughan, Butcher, Hussain & Thorpe have all shown the ability to put together a long / big innings, whereas NZ have no where near that sort of depth or consistency. NZ at this stage would appear to be scoring quickly, but still remains potentially brittle.
For this reason I would like to see either Sinclair start at No4 ahead of Styris, or Vincent at No5 & either in place of Macca in a 5 man batting lineup. Sinclair has the better credentials for a long innings of substance but can be a slow starter. Vincent can keep the scoreboard ticking over with singles.
Another outside option could be Marshall, but I doubt he has done enough in the 'A' series Tests to be a genuine contender for a place in the 14 man party for this tour........
I'd like to see B Martin as the only spin bowler (I don't think they will need any more & I think Vettori needs a break to get himself sorted), but I doubt it as Wiseman has had more success in the 'A' series........
I also think Franklin must be in the running ahead of Mills & Mason for the Test party & he adds a lot of depth to the batting lineup.
A lot will depend on the injury to Tuffey, how Bond pulls up after the 'A' ODIs, and if Cairns retires or not.......so far as the squad selections are concerned.........
Yeah, I'm leaning towards Franklin for the Test team now as well!
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
Which is all well and good provided that there's clubs willing to take them.Craig said:
I believe a lot of clubs can only sign one overseas player for a whole season, so are they going to want someone who a) they don't know if they'll even be available until very late on and b) could be called away at a moments notice?
BlackCap_Fan
State Vice-Captain
blimey! over 400 posts and the tour hasn't even started yet!
Mingster said:McMillan may be inconsistent in the ODIs, but he has a very respectable Test average of over 41.
Macca has one of the best averages in the batting lineup for sure - but the problem is consistency - not just him but the lineup as a whole.........
the way I see it Macca is the most likely 'expendable' option, unless Cairns retires and they bring in another specialist batsman and include Oram as one of 3 seamers rather than as the 4th & allrounder...........
I think NZ will want to continue with the tactic of trying to accelerate the game, but as we saw in Wellington if the batsmen fail to adapt to the situation then it can work against you.........
IMO above ALL else NZ need some decent summers and decent domestic pitches..........
more like at The Basin will do fine, nice pace & good consistant bounce for the batsmen to have confidence to play their strokes, with enough in it to reward good seam bowling with the new ball & turn for the spinners late Day 4 on...probably the best domestic Test pitch I have seen in a while..........
Hamilton was a joke & Auckland just too batsman friendly with not enough encouragement either for the new ball (unless it was overcast) nor for spin on the last day.....
this also applies for ODIs where too often the team winning the toss will chase, simply because they don't know how the pitch will play..........IMO ODIs should ONLY be played on a pitch that has been recently used within the last week...............regardless of if it is a drop in that has been used in the past
more like at The Basin will do fine, nice pace & good consistant bounce for the batsmen to have confidence to play their strokes, with enough in it to reward good seam bowling with the new ball & turn for the spinners late Day 4 on...probably the best domestic Test pitch I have seen in a while..........
Hamilton was a joke & Auckland just too batsman friendly with not enough encouragement either for the new ball (unless it was overcast) nor for spin on the last day.....
this also applies for ODIs where too often the team winning the toss will chase, simply because they don't know how the pitch will play..........IMO ODIs should ONLY be played on a pitch that has been recently used within the last week...............regardless of if it is a drop in that has been used in the past
nibblet said:
but NOT for this tour.....
he's not played since the 1st innings in the 2nd Test in India & 2 weeks until the departure & 3 warm up games b4 the 1st Test is not enough IMO.....particularly when NZ will take only 14 players and operate with only 5 specialist batsmen...........
Loony BoB
International Captain
Batting
Craig McMillan
Average: 41.8
Strike rate: 55.94
Daniel Vettori
Average: 20.54
Strike rate: 48.95
Bowling
Craig McMillan
Average: 43.89
Strike rate: 87.8
Daniel Vettori
Average: 37.8
Strike rate: 84.9
Just thought I'd put that in for show. xD Also...
McMillan: He's not doing great, but his overall average is still incredibly valuable. Here are the averages for some Black Caps, all filtered to the last 15 matches. If you see a star, that means they haven't made 15 matches, but I've done what I could from what they've played.
Jacob Oram*: 68.66
Nathan Astle: 51.1
Chris Cairns: 50.22
Stephen Fleming: 43.95
Mark Richardson: 41.76
Scott Styris*: 41.47
Craig McMillan: 39.10
Brendon McCullum: 36.75
Matthew Sinclair: 35.72
Daniel Vettori: 27.89
Of course, you do have to keep other factors in mind. McMillan is a lovely fielder and Fleming does like to consult him. There was a point where McMillan was considered to be Fleming's future successor. My ideal lineup for the coming tests would be something like this:
Stephen Fleming (captain)
Mark Richardson
Michael Papps
Scott Styris
Jacob Oram
Chris Cairns (if he's willing)
Brendon McCullum
Shane Bond (if he's able)
Chris Martin
Bruce Martin
1 more...
Of course, if we're going by domestic statistics, you couldn't go far wrong with Chris Harris. 17 wickets at an average of 16.41 and an average of 58 with the bat. ... or maybe Ewen Thomson, 25 wickets at 16.76 isn't too shabby. Lou Vincent - he'd pick up the fielding and he's shown an average of 61.8 (and even though he sucked before, at least it gives him experience). Franklin is an okay all rounder, I suppose. With Martin, Martin, Bond, Cairns, Oram and Styris, we should be covered for bowling options, though. Looking at the lineup I have, the only thing missing is someone who can hang around if needed, not a new face to put on trial - we have Bruce Martin for that. For this reason, I'd go with Harris or McMillan. They both still have the added bonus of being bowlers, I guess. In my opinion, McMillan is one of the most underrated bowlers in test cricket.
Woah, I ramble... anyway, my team of 14:
Stephen Fleming (captain)
Mark Richardson
Michael Papps
Scott Styris
Jacob Oram
Chris Cairns (if he's willing)
Brendon McCullum
Shane Bond (if he's able)
Chris Martin
Bruce Martin
Chris Harris
Craig McMillan
Lou Vincent
Why do I choose Martin over Wiseman, regardless of the A series? Because he's ten years younger, and that's a HUGE factor. Wiseman was born in 1970, as was Cairns, and Cairns is talking about retiring. Go figure. The downside of this selection is the overall lack of bowlers, but I still think that McMillan is just as capable of knocking off a pom as Vettor is.
Craig McMillan
Average: 41.8
Strike rate: 55.94
Daniel Vettori
Average: 20.54
Strike rate: 48.95
Bowling
Craig McMillan
Average: 43.89
Strike rate: 87.8
Daniel Vettori
Average: 37.8
Strike rate: 84.9
Just thought I'd put that in for show. xD Also...
McMillan: He's not doing great, but his overall average is still incredibly valuable. Here are the averages for some Black Caps, all filtered to the last 15 matches. If you see a star, that means they haven't made 15 matches, but I've done what I could from what they've played.
Jacob Oram*: 68.66
Nathan Astle: 51.1
Chris Cairns: 50.22
Stephen Fleming: 43.95
Mark Richardson: 41.76
Scott Styris*: 41.47
Craig McMillan: 39.10
Brendon McCullum: 36.75
Matthew Sinclair: 35.72
Daniel Vettori: 27.89
Of course, you do have to keep other factors in mind. McMillan is a lovely fielder and Fleming does like to consult him. There was a point where McMillan was considered to be Fleming's future successor. My ideal lineup for the coming tests would be something like this:
Stephen Fleming (captain)
Mark Richardson
Michael Papps
Scott Styris
Jacob Oram
Chris Cairns (if he's willing)
Brendon McCullum
Shane Bond (if he's able)
Chris Martin
Bruce Martin
1 more...
Of course, if we're going by domestic statistics, you couldn't go far wrong with Chris Harris. 17 wickets at an average of 16.41 and an average of 58 with the bat. ... or maybe Ewen Thomson, 25 wickets at 16.76 isn't too shabby. Lou Vincent - he'd pick up the fielding and he's shown an average of 61.8 (and even though he sucked before, at least it gives him experience). Franklin is an okay all rounder, I suppose. With Martin, Martin, Bond, Cairns, Oram and Styris, we should be covered for bowling options, though. Looking at the lineup I have, the only thing missing is someone who can hang around if needed, not a new face to put on trial - we have Bruce Martin for that. For this reason, I'd go with Harris or McMillan. They both still have the added bonus of being bowlers, I guess. In my opinion, McMillan is one of the most underrated bowlers in test cricket.
Woah, I ramble... anyway, my team of 14:
Stephen Fleming (captain)
Mark Richardson
Michael Papps
Scott Styris
Jacob Oram
Chris Cairns (if he's willing)
Brendon McCullum
Shane Bond (if he's able)
Chris Martin
Bruce Martin
Chris Harris
Craig McMillan
Lou Vincent
Why do I choose Martin over Wiseman, regardless of the A series? Because he's ten years younger, and that's a HUGE factor. Wiseman was born in 1970, as was Cairns, and Cairns is talking about retiring. Go figure. The downside of this selection is the overall lack of bowlers, but I still think that McMillan is just as capable of knocking off a pom as Vettor is.
no Tuffey?????...............
& no Astle?????.........
Macca has the ability & the stats - also he used to be VC..............but lately he appears to have only 1 decent innings per series whereas Styris backs his innings up more often than not & in both forms of the game..............he also spends more time at the crease than Macca which is crucial towards building an effective middle & lower order innings..........
Macca's fielding has also slipped IMO - he's still great in the air but has been very ordinary on the ground - seems to have had a lack of effort / application.............His bowling may be an X factor, but again Styris is more the legitimate bowling option...........
hence my summation that Macca is the most 'expendable' of the 5 specialist batsmen - his 2 main options are as follows..........play more innings like he did in Auckland..............convert himself to a Test opener and do a Sehwag (and I am being serious), - and stop playing that accursed reverse sweep so bloody early................
& no Astle?????.........
Macca has the ability & the stats - also he used to be VC..............but lately he appears to have only 1 decent innings per series whereas Styris backs his innings up more often than not & in both forms of the game..............he also spends more time at the crease than Macca which is crucial towards building an effective middle & lower order innings..........
Macca's fielding has also slipped IMO - he's still great in the air but has been very ordinary on the ground - seems to have had a lack of effort / application.............His bowling may be an X factor, but again Styris is more the legitimate bowling option...........
hence my summation that Macca is the most 'expendable' of the 5 specialist batsmen - his 2 main options are as follows..........play more innings like he did in Auckland..............convert himself to a Test opener and do a Sehwag (and I am being serious), - and stop playing that accursed reverse sweep so bloody early................
Loony BoB said:
if this is for the last 15 tests played by NZ then shouldn't there be stars next to Astle, Cairns, McCullum & Sinclair as well?????
or if it's for the palyer's last 15 Test innings then McCullum would need a star as he has only played the series v RSA...............