**Official** New Zealand in England

[Shoggz]

Well the Flintoff debate is now null and void:

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/engvnz/content/current/story/350601.html

 

[Flem274*]

Flintoff crocked and out of the first two tests with a side strain

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/engvnz/content/current/story/350601.html

I feel sad for the game.

But stoked for NZ.

 

[_Ed_]

Poor Fred.

 

[GIMH]

Flintoff crocked and out of the first two tests with a side strain

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/engvnz/content/current/story/350601.html

In 2006 he was only supposed to miss one and ended up not playing the rest of the summer. This has ruined my day.

Hoggard or Anderson then?

 

[Scaly piscine]

Well the Flintoff debate is now null and void:

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/engvnz/content/current/story/350601.html

Tis absolutely bloody typical.

 

[Spitfires_Fan]

In 2006 he was only supposed to miss one and ended up not playing the rest of the summer. This has ruined my day.

Hoggard or Anderson then?

Hoggard for me.

I was with Botham in hoping that he wouldn't get picked just yet, but it sucks that he's picked up another injury. The only bright spot is that it's not ankle-related.

 

[BoyBrumby]

In 2006 he was only supposed to miss one and ended up not playing the rest of the summer. This has ruined my day.

Hoggard or Anderson then?

Suspect it'll be the latter, but would go for the former, personally. Still think the way we dumped him after one dodgy game in NZ when he'd been our best bowler for about two years up until his injuries started to bite was very harsh.

Cricinfo talking up Wright as a chance if Colly's shoulder won't allow him to play, mainly on grounds of his timely ton & the overs of medium pace he could send down. I'd retire from internationals if I were Shah & that happened.

What happened to Bell's medium pacers, btw? Doesn't seem to ever get a bowl now & wasn't horrible. Haven't heard of any injury issues so assume he's just given them away.

 

[_Ed_]

JDP Oram 3-2-1-1

Good to see.

 

[GIMH]

Suspect it'll be the latter, but would go for the former, personally. Still think the way we dumped him after one dodgy game in NZ when he'd been our best bowler for about two years up until his injuries started to bite was very harsh.

Cricinfo talking up Wright as a chance if Colly's shoulder won't allow him to play, mainly on grounds of his timely ton & the overs of medium pace he could send down. I'd retire from internationals if I were Shah & that happened.

What happened to Bell's medium pacers, btw? Doesn't seem to ever get a bowl now & wasn't horrible. Haven't heard of any injury issues so assume he's just given them away.

Been wondering myself, not much worse than Colly IMO

 

[gettingbetter]

In years, yes, but Patel has been playing for much longer. Denly only played for the first time (really - he'd played about 3 UCCE games before then) last season, Patel has as I say been around a fair while now. Denly, like Godleman, is still far more of an open case than Patel.

I don't see how that is of any relevance. This must be similar to your arguments of international players being picked to early. Patel is clearly a better batsman than both Denly and Goodleman, hence having an open case over Denly, but no so much over Goodleman ATM.

Oh, of course he is, I'm not saying he's doing poorly or anything, simply that his gains are being a little overstated. What could he have done more than have half a good season? Well, have a whole good season. His case would be quite different if 2006 and 2007 read 2 rather than 1-and-a-half good seasons, and he'd certainly be someone who should be in England A books by now.

This whole repartee was instigated due to a poster asking who'd you have in the middle order in England besides Shah and Bopara. After your suggestions (I think it was you at least), that being Ramps and Joyce, Patel seems to be the best of a bad bunch.

Watson of the Shane variety? I don't exactly "champion" him TBH.

Advocate, support, herald, defend maybe be other words which would of been better. Both have similar statistical records and similar scenarios in regards to there careers (sans injuries). I think 'how can someone averaging 50 in FC cricket and scoring 200 in a final' was said by you in respect to Watson's inclusion in a Test team, while others were dismissing him.

 

[Richard]

Flintoff crocked and out of the first two tests with a side strain

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/engvnz/content/current/story/350601.html

Well the Flintoff debate is now null and void:

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/engvnz/content/current/story/350601.html

at the just-beaten-to-it.

Not- at the Flintoff another-injury however. at it in fact. Just what you don't need when trying to prove your fitness, to get injured. So we're back to Plan A.

I honestly don't think it's likely Hoggard will play ahead of Anderson, but hope they might at least both be in the squad.

 

[Richard]

Cricinfo talking up Wright as a chance if Colly's shoulder won't allow him to play, mainly on grounds of his timely ton & the overs of medium pace he could send down. I'd retire from internationals if I were Shah & that happened.

I wish I would be surprised if that happened, but I wouldn't be. I'd also be disappointed that I'd run-out of expletives, because that might indeed be worse than any of the countless selection howlers of last winter.

What happened to Bell's medium pacers, btw? Doesn't seem to ever get a bowl now & wasn't horrible. Haven't heard of any injury issues so assume he's just given them away.

Was pretty horrible, really.

 

[Richard]

I don't see how that is of any relevance. This must be similar to your arguments of international players being picked to early. Patel is clearly a better batsman than both Denly and Goodleman, hence having an open case over Denly, but no so much over Goodleman ATM.

Denly and Godleman have both barely started their careers yet. Patel started his ages ago. I really can't put it any simpler than that.

Yes, Patel is a decent player, and yes he should undoubtedly play considerably ahead of either if the entire England team went down with flu 2 days before the First Test. But I don't see any real evidence as to which is the more promising at the current time.

This whole repartee was instigated due to a poster asking who'd you have in the middle order in England besides Shah and Bopara. After your suggestions (I think it was you at least), that being Ramps and Joyce, Patel seems to be the best of a bad bunch.

Maybe, maybe not. I'd honestly never given the matter much thought - I tend to hope we don't have to bury that deep, by-and-large.

Advocate, support, herald, defend maybe be other words which would of been better. Both have similar statistical records and similar scenarios in regards to there careers (sans injuries). I think 'how can someone averaging 50 in FC cricket and scoring 200 in a final' was said by you in respect to Watson's inclusion in a Test team, while others were dismissing him.

Nope, wasn't me. I've said he's been a bit unfortunate not to play more Tests than he has, and I've said he's a better batsman than Symonds, and I've said some people go stupidly OTT in dismissing him. No more. I can't ever recall mentioning that 200 TBH.

 

[Leslie1]

Injury hitlist:

Flintoff (gone)
Collingwood (stiffness in his back and soreness in his right shoulder)
Ambrose (stiff neck)

O Brien (Calf strain)
Vettori (finger)
Southee (lower back)

 

[FBU]

Suspect it'll be the latter, but would go for the former, personally. Still think the way we dumped him after one dodgy game in NZ when he'd been our best bowler for about two years up until his injuries started to bite was very harsh.

.

I consider this poor.
Hoggard's last 12 Tests
31 wickets at 41.35 econ 3.34 s/r 74.10

and this is just as bad
Harmison last 12 Tests
33 wickets at 45.39 econ 3.53 s/r 76.90

what we are looking for is something like this
Sidebottom 12 Tests
53 wickets at 25.39 econ 2.81 s/r 54.10

or
Steyn last 12 Tests
78 wickets at 16.24 econ 3.36 s/r 28.90

 

[FBU]

IThis whole repartee was instigated due to a poster asking who'd you have in the middle order in England besides Shah and Bopara. After your suggestions (I think it was you at least), that being Ramps and Joyce, Patel seems to be the best of a bad bunch.


.

Patel needs to lose some weight and get fitter and hold down a permanent place in the first XI for Notts to get chosen for the Lions touring squad.

 

[GIMH]

I consider this poor.
Hoggard's last 12 Tests
31 wickets at 41.35 econ 3.34 s/r 74.10

and this is just as bad
Harmison last 12 Tests
33 wickets at 45.39 econ 3.53 s/r 76.90

what we are looking for is something like this
Sidebottom 12 Tests
53 wickets at 25.39 econ 2.81 s/r 54.10

or
Steyn last 12 Tests
78 wickets at 16.24 econ 3.36 s/r 28.90

Yeah, Hoggy appears to have escaped criticism for his poor form over about 12 months now tbh. Not necessarily would i pick james a ahead of him, for id back hoggy first, but no way he should he be a shoo-in on recent form.

 

[gettingbetter]

Patel needs to lose some weight and get fitter and hold down a permanent place in the first XI for Notts to get chosen for the Lions touring squad.

Never hurt Warney, Taylor, Boon, Gatting and many others. Its not like he is Mark Cosgrove and his performances are being compromised due to weight.

 

[gettingbetter]

Yeah, Hoggy appears to have escaped criticism for his poor form over about 12 months now tbh. Not necessarily would i pick james a ahead of him, for id back hoggy first, but no way he should he be a shoo-in on recent form.

You think some compassion can be awarded to Hoggard for carrying the England team during the ashes - I think that comes into the 12 Tests selected.

 

[gettingbetter]

Denly and Godleman have both barely started their careers yet. Patel started his ages ago. I really can't put it any simpler than that.

Yes, Patel is a decent player, and yes he should undoubtedly play considerably ahead of either if the entire England team went down with flu 2 days before the First Test. But I don't see any real evidence as to which is the more promising at the current time.

Maybe, maybe not. I'd honestly never given the matter much thought - I tend to hope we don't have to bury that deep, by-and-large.

Nope, wasn't me. I've said he's been a bit unfortunate not to play more Tests than he has, and I've said he's a better batsman than Symonds, and I've said some people go stupidly OTT in dismissing him. No more. I can't ever recall mentioning that 200 TBH.

As for the ages and starting date of career, how can you not give leeway for Patel when you make such accomodations for other players in the international sphere - Flintoff and Atherton being the most prominent. In regards to Watson, I was 100% that was you, not to matter any way.