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***Official*** New Zealand Domestic Season 2014/15
- Thread starter RxGM
- Start date
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
Johnson's modes of dismissal are about pace and intimidation more than most other bowlers. They're completely different bowlers.
Steyn and Malcolm Marshall could go both ways but I don't remember Bond ever employing hostility as a tool.
Blocky
Banned
He's got a tonne of mongrel in him, he used to try and knock the heads off of everyone when he was a schoolboy bowler but ultimately he's worked on variation, line and length while sustaining the pace. The other thing is we're thinking about a foil for Southee and Boult, while Southee now has the skill set where he should perform consistently in almost any condition due to being able to change his approach, we need a bowler who doesn't rely on swing as much as Boult does in order to balance the attack. The only reason you select a guy who can bowl 155kmh is to intimidate the opposition, if the guy feels that he's being a bully or shouldn't do it, he's the wrong guy to select.
Flem274*
123/5
mitchell johnson is not an example though, he's a case of his own.
comparing any bowler to mitchell johnson is going to be a strange process. he began his test career as a slide it across as fast as possible merchant which got guys out on the drive, then he tried to be a real bowler after randomly hooping it in South Africa and failed miserably, he fell to pieces because the English called him names and now he's decided not to worry about being a real bowler and just bowls bouncers and full deliveries as fast as he can.
if i had to name a kiwi bowler i wanted to copy MJ it would be either his namesake Mitch M or Gillespie.
in fact Gillespie in full flight is just getting the ball to rear up and follow the batsman from a length at 140-145.
wellAlbidarned
International Coach
The only thing similar about Johnson and Milne is their pace range - we shouldn't be expecting Milne to be that sort of bowler. Steyn is who he should be looking to.
Blocky
Banned
Bond was a freak though, he was a highly accurate bowler who could move the ball both ways, while bowling above 150kmh and having major control over his length. Bond, Steyn, etcetera - you don't bank on those guys coming around often. NZ has more chance of turning out a Johnson than they do another Bond or Steyn (in my view)
Flem274*
123/5
on the A tour the other year it was pretty evident he's trying to be bond.
which if he can stay fit sounds perfect.
Flem274*
123/5
he didn't start that way though. he was never the poster kid. he was a nibbler until he joined the cops. bond and ryan harris are two guys who got where they did through work and knowing what they were trying to achieve. they pretty much took the medium pace method and bowled it faster.
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
I don't think you can really say this at the moment, Milne's too early in his development cycle to really guess how good he'll become. Don't forget that when Johnson first materialised on the scene in 2005, he was a skinny, fast-medium pie-thrower. Looking at him when he made his debut, I never would've guessed that he'd grow to become the Monster-Mitch that he is now
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
IME you tend to get a bit more aggressive from the age of 20-25 as that last kick of testosterone and muscle growth comes through. We'll just have to wait and see.
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
Is this actually true? Because IIRC Lillee et al. were already saying he was a freak at that stage. I could be wrong though.
Flem274*
123/5
yeah it is.
lillee is a great bowler and coach but he tends to get a bit overexcited. southee was better than mcgrath at age x, mitch is a once in a generation bowler etc lillee was very eventually vindicated (or maybe he had it nailed all along, just not in the manner he expected) but he used to go all out in his hype for his kids. maybe it was to make them feel awesome.
lillee is a great bowler and coach but he tends to get a bit overexcited. southee was better than mcgrath at age x, mitch is a once in a generation bowler etc lillee was very eventually vindicated (or maybe he had it nailed all along, just not in the manner he expected) but he used to go all out in his hype for his kids. maybe it was to make them feel awesome.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Lillee said he was a 'once in a generation bowler' when he was younger (much younger than the Johnson Bahnz saw), but then he had terrible stress fracture issues for a few years afterwards. He came back a very different player.
I think Bahnz's point is more about Johnson's physique more than anything else though. He was nothing like the beefcake he is now when he debuted.
Blocky
Banned
Lillee called him Australia's best prospect when he was a 16 yr old and said that the guy would be among the best fast bowlers of all time. The whole "pie thrower" thing - he got over bowled, got some injuries and was focusing on the swing he was able to get... the reality is he was always a far better bowling when he was looking to intimidate and be bowled in very short spells.
Yeah, he turned up at a cricket practice one day having not bowled for a number of years and was apparently lethal immediately - which also implies to me the virtue of complete absence from cricket while doing other strength training and fitness exercises. I remember facing Shane Bond pre-police and he was a dobbly bowler who could swing the ball massively. I then saw him play up at Whangarei in about 2001 just after they got back from the Australian tour and he was rapid, probably the fastest I've seen any bowler bowl live ( and I've seen Waqar, Wasim, Donald and Johnson live)
Well, I honestly hope I'm wrong but I really only see Milne being effective if he takes on the enforcer role and acts as a foil to Southee and Boult. But, Milne is incredibly young considering the amount of cricket he's played so lets hope he proves me wrong.
In terms of who he "feels" like most in terms of action and what the ball does off the pitch, I'd say Freddie Flintoff would be his ideal candidate for mimicking - similar height and arm action, Freddy was much stronger but Milne can build that over time. Freddy was great at using bounce as a weapon.
jcas0167
International Debutant
He was promising, but I mainly remember him getting smoked by Oram and McCullum in Hadlee/Chappell that year. I think Oram hit him over the roof of Lancaster Park?
Blocky
Banned
But yes, going back to the virtue of someone like Johnson...
Do you want him as a six to eight over spell bowler who looks to use line, length and swing to remove batsmen, knowing that he has a tendency to over pitch on occasion and bowl the wider ball that people used to wait on and punish... or... do you want him as a four over spell bowler who looks to bowl at the batsman, whilst talking to the batsman, while letting the batsman know he wants nothing more than to break bones and hurt them.
Nothing like aggression and a single minded purpose to focus the mind - what he did to the English side was all about having the ability to bowl lightning pace and also having the slinging action (something Milne doesn't have, unfortunately) that made it hard to pick up what length he was bowling.
Do you want him as a six to eight over spell bowler who looks to use line, length and swing to remove batsmen, knowing that he has a tendency to over pitch on occasion and bowl the wider ball that people used to wait on and punish... or... do you want him as a four over spell bowler who looks to bowl at the batsman, whilst talking to the batsman, while letting the batsman know he wants nothing more than to break bones and hurt them.
Nothing like aggression and a single minded purpose to focus the mind - what he did to the English side was all about having the ability to bowl lightning pace and also having the slinging action (something Milne doesn't have, unfortunately) that made it hard to pick up what length he was bowling.
Blocky
Banned
Also having the right coach too
Lehmann has been superb for Australia and I only wish that Lehmann coached NZ because I guarantee you Ryder would be in the side and performing at a high level. I'd say Lehmann having the faith and confidence in Johnson, reminding him about what made him special while also keeping the focus on enjoying cricket and not monotonous routine and over-training like the last coaches did has made a major impact on guys like Johnson and Warner.
Lehmann has been superb for Australia and I only wish that Lehmann coached NZ because I guarantee you Ryder would be in the side and performing at a high level. I'd say Lehmann having the faith and confidence in Johnson, reminding him about what made him special while also keeping the focus on enjoying cricket and not monotonous routine and over-training like the last coaches did has made a major impact on guys like Johnson and Warner.
Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
ixnay on the bowling academy talk. Numerous articles on how we lost a generation of bowlers due to bad advice and yes concrete surfaces (but what else are you going to get in the winter)
I have heard a former fringe black cap talk poorly of the academy and he was lightning quick when he went into it and came out hobbled.
My understanding is that Boult and Southee are who they are today because they weren't put through an academy. And even if we only get two-three such bowlers a generation that is probably good enough for us.