***Official*** New Zealand Domestic Season 2014/15

[Prince EWS]

Getting your excuses ready early Blocky?

 

[Hurricane]

Getting your excuses ready early Blocky?

Nah I am on team Blocky atm this is the best spirit I have ever seen him in...good stuff and very informative posts. Keep up the good work Blocky.

 

[Blocky]

Getting your excuses ready early Blocky?

No, I'm just realistic and know how to judge the form and ability of a player - hence me being behind him last season and extolling his virtues as a vital partnership breaker and potentially better bowler than Boult.

At the moment he's not playing well, his action has fallen apart and he needs remedial work - the worst place to do that is while you're struggling for form on the cricket wicket and trying harder and harder to get it back.

Agree with much of what Blocky is saying on Ryder though like most others here I don't ultimately believe Ryder has much/any future playing for NZ.

I'd almost guarantee that he'll play at the world cup, I think the reality is at the moment as much as people want to posture about having the right culture within the team unit, they also know that winning comes absolutely first and the fact that Guptill looks terrible, Neesham isn't adapting to opening and Williamson can't bowl which impacts the balance of our side, they need Ryder arguably more at the moment than they did when he came back last year.

Agree with the obvious diagnosis that like a lot of people with a lot of superficial confidence and bluster, Ryder is insecure and fearful underneath. But I think there's another angle to that. He's scored runs at international level but he's never really scored runs against the people I (and he) would think of as The Big Boys. At some point in his early stint in international cricket I think the realisation snuck in that, unlike ever before, there were bigger fish in the sea than him. Bowlers that he couldn't just deal to, particularly those that were genuinely quick and intimidating, and that he couldn't see any way of dealing with in the future either. Fear of failure and humiliation snuck in. Other batsmen doubtless face the same feelings but may have more mental/emotional reserves to call upon in order to face that challenge, however for Ryder I think once that thought was in his head then he went with the well established (in NZ) fallback option that you've pointed out -"too cool, not gonna try". I expect that if he was facing Steyn and Philander or Johnson tomorrow we'd just get wild swings and slashes every ball because he doesn't genuinely believe he can play them.

I don't see him having any fear against the big boys, he has (at IPL and also with Essex) faced some pretty big names and done well against them/ Invariably guys will average less against South Africa and Australia versus the world but to judge him on how he's gone so far against them when he's only played 18 tests total is a little unfair, also considering most of those tests came in his early twenties too. I think his fear isn't in facing those guys and having to work hard, I think his fear is that he won't get the chance and therefore being "too cool for that ****" is his way of hiding those insecurities.

Tend to agree with this too though what it runs up against is the culture most teams and their coaches/captains try to build. That culture of team-first, individual second repeated again and again and drummed into everyone. Anyone that steps out of line and shows non-team-first behaviour and does not comply is strictly put in their place. There are other examples of that - I see Jeets backing away against Steyn in South Africa as an example - it would have been seen as an affront to the team-first culture and his dropping was more a punishment for that violation than for any direct cricket reasons. The fact that there was nothing to gain whatsoever by him standing there and wearing a ball from Steyn was besides the point… in fact it only increased his opportunity to demonstrate his team-first approach. A few arbitrary rules and rituals always seem to sneak in to that culture too and perhaps these do strengthen the team bond as well. Most of this culture is seen as positive and it does involve a lot of internal reinforcement; a lot of players like it.

Team culture is bull **** in my view, performance is king. I'd say that Patel was dropped on performance - A: He can't bowl for **** at test level, and B: It was shameful that a guy with first class tonnes was running to square leg against a bowler. I think with Jesse the wider issue is that they've now put him firmly in the "must be firm and restrictive on him" camp. Like I covered in another post, he's actually quite well liked within the team as a person and people enjoy spending time with him (Gup and Taylor especially) - but being a guy with a bad history, being overweight and having alcohol issues will always mean he's targeted by media (and idiots too) and his actions will always be exaggerated solely because he's newsworthy and great click bait for news sites. Take the recent bull**** about how him saying to the NZ Selectors about the North vs South (meaningless) match "I don't think my body can handle that much cricket in that short of a period and I want to focus on my longer form cricket for Otago" becoming "I'm too busy to play for New Zealand" - that's just the reality he's in, he needs to get better at dealing with it but it certainly adds to the chip on his shoulder and the sense that "No matter what I do, people have a big issue with it"

But then someone like Ryder comes along and needs exceptions made for him, because he will most definitel\\y exhibit some non-team-first behaviour. People will say his behaviour is not acceptable and it will be seen as undermining the team culture and also the authority of the captain/coach. Authoritarian elements within the environment will try to pull him into line. Unless they’re smart/careful the captain and coach will likely back themselves into a corner by escalating things; warning the offending player, last warning, ultimatums as Blocky talked about. They end up in a situation where they either kick the offending player out or completely lose face themselves.

He's not that big of an exception - Baz had major attitude issues in earlier years that he was coached through, Cairns and Parore had massive ego and arrogance issues (and destructive behavior, too), The whole bull**** with the Taylor fiasco for instance, but most importantly, the team isn't performing well at the moment and Ryder is one guy who could change that. It's not like the case where a lot of people in the side (due to factions and bull****) don't like him - i.e Sinclair and the fact that Fleming and his little group hated him/felt threatened by him.

There are ways to do things better than the above but they do require a compromise on that culture, and in Ryder's case much of this is already established history anyway.

Playing for Essex is fundamentally different to playing for NZ and for the people he has a long and difficult history with. He has an established relationship with NZC, coach, captain, some players etc that is to a greater or lesser extent antagonistic. Particularly as Ryder will see some of them as just more of those types that have tried to cast their authority over him, who’ve abandoned him and disrespected him. Does he really want to succeed at cricket with and for those people? In all likelihood I think not.

Well, keep in account that Essex had no history with him and were warned by others about his reputation yet chose to treat him like an adult, gave him accountability for his own actions and ultimately came out of the experience amazed at how much of a team player he was, how he contributed across the board for them Consider the same with Otago, a season in which everyone remarked they saw some amazing personal development and growth out of him and ultimately lead him to being back in the NZ quad.

Then he gets into NZ Cricket and they impose massive restrictions on him, put a minder with him at all times (And usually a young minder) and place major threats on him "If you do this, its your last chance" - they also do things like "Thanks for playing so well for us in ODI, but even though we have injuries in our team we're still not going to select you for test cricket, but please come be the twelfth man for one of the matches" - again, "Despite you performing so well, we just don't trust you" - all that to me is a reinforcement that he's expected to act up and go get ****faced, so that's what he does

 

[hendrix]

#teamblocky

 

[Blocky]

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of personal accountability and I sorely wish that Jesse would show a little bit and not react to situations due to the huge chip he has on his shoulder, but you'll see the best out of Jesse when you make him feel valued and an important part of the team, not as a guy who you're expecting will **** it all up. And I think even in his last run, there was too much in terms of "we don't trust you" in the way they dealt with him and a lot of ignorance around it too "Let's get a guy in his early twenties to be his minder and tell him not to do things"

 

[Hurricane]

#teamblocky

I am thinking of putting it in my location.

 

[Bahnz]

they also do things like "Thanks for playing so well for us in ODI, but even though we have injuries in our team we're still not going to select you for test cricket, but please come be the twelfth man for one of the matches" - again, "Despite you performing so well, we just don't trust you" - all that to me is a reinforcement that he's expected to act up and go get ****faced, so that's what he does

Disagree with the sentiment behind this. When Ryder returned to the fold, New Zealand had finally cobbled together a team that was winning. Neither Ryder, nor anybody else should ever have expected to waltz back into the side - especially given the poor form he showed in the India ODI's (and that's the only way you can characterise repeatedly playing down the wrong line to Mohammad Shami). What makes it even more frustrating is that he knew that if he kept his **** together for one more week, then he'd have been brought into the test side (with Taylor's missus being 37 weeks pregnant at the time) and yet he still couldn't help himself. Not only that, but he subsequently tried to act like he hadn't just let the entire side down. That's what pisses me off the most - the refusal to take responsibility for his own actions - and that's why I have difficulty believing that he'll ever be a reliable member of the national side.

 

[Athlai]

**** yeah Wellington. What a game, Murdoch and Franklin with massive knocks there. Hopefully signs of good things to come this season for the Direbirds.

 

[Hurricane]

I am not going to really weigh in even though my mind is made up on the issue. I will say however that during that last ODI series his off side play was screwed. I am trying to remember now exactly what it was but by memory he wasn't getting his foot close to the pitch of the ball when driving and he couldn't execute. I pointed it out at the time and I got shot down by all these peeps who had seen vault footage of him saying it was only an issue in the ODIs - if my observations were correct then he needed and potentially currently needs serious remedial work and time with John Wright or Greatbatch or someone anyway up to speed with left handed batting.

 

[Flem274*]

I am thinking of putting it in my location.

don't you dare remove the georgie pie super smash

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of personal accountability and I sorely wish that Jesse would show a little bit and not react to situations due to the huge chip he has on his shoulder, but you'll see the best out of Jesse when you make him feel valued and an important part of the team, not as a guy who you're expecting will **** it all up. And I think even in his last run, there was too much in terms of "we don't trust you" in the way they dealt with him and a lot of ignorance around it too "Let's get a guy in his early twenties to be his minder and tell him not to do things"

i still can't believe how moronic it was to have a younger, less experienced player be the "minder" of a guy who had history and would attract the media and god knows who else at the slightest hint of blood in the water.

I am not going to really weigh in even though my mind is made up on the issue. I will say however that during that last ODI series his off side play was screwed. I am trying to remember now exactly what it was but by memory he wasn't getting his foot close to the pitch of the ball when driving and he couldn't execute. I pointed it out at the time and I got shot down by all these peeps who had seen vault footage of him saying it was only an issue in the ODIs - if my observations were correct then he needed and potentially currently needs serious remedial work and time with John Wright or Greatbatch or someone anyway up to speed with left handed batting.

that was a symptom of being a dirty biffer during his absence from the side. you don't just change bad habits overnight.

 

[Blocky]

Disagree with the sentiment behind this. When Ryder returned to the fold, New Zealand had finally cobbled together a team that was winning. Neither Ryder, nor anybody else should ever have expected to waltz back into the side - especially given the poor form he showed in the India ODI's (and that's the only way you can characterise repeatedly playing down the wrong line to Mohammad Shami). What makes it even more frustrating is that he knew that if he kept his **** together for one more week, then he'd have been brought into the test side (with Taylor's missus being 37 weeks pregnant at the time) and yet he still couldn't help himself. Not only that, but he subsequently tried to act like he hadn't just let the entire side down. That's what pisses me off the most - the refusal to take responsibility for his own actions - and that's why I have difficulty believing that he'll ever be a reliable member of the national side.

I think the wider issue was that he was allowed to drink within the international circles and from what I've heard was even encouraged to have a beer or two with the boys, which then turned into "Well, I'm not playing tomorrow, it won't hurt if I go get a burger and a beer with Doug" which then turned into "Wow, this fourth beer tasted good" which turned into "Oh ****, I'm in the news again" - he instantly felt denial was his best approach because ultimately, he had also been out earlier in the week with other players where an incident didn't occur and it was considered "OK" - mixed messages considering pre Hesson it was "Do not drink, otherwise do not play"

don't you dare remove the georgie pie super smash

i still can't believe how moronic it was to have a younger, less experienced player be the "minder" of a guy who had history and would attract the media and god knows who else at the slightest hint of blood in the water.

that was a symptom of being a dirty biffer during his absence from the side. you don't just change bad habits overnight.

Agree with both of your comments 100% - Jesse had set himself up to be the most destructive attacking batsman he could be at pretty much all formats, due to knowing IPL was around the corner and also (in my view) realising that NZ needed him to get them off to fast starts, because Gup wasn't capable.

You also have to remember that whilst he was swinging across the line and slogging at everything, he was still making big runs at domestic level in a season where there weren't as many big runs. His real issue in terms of his offside play is that he forgot he doesn't have to hit the ball aerially in order to make runs there. Had he simply settled on late, soft hands on the off side, and waiting for the bowler to drift into his pads to smack him for six on the onside, that sort of play would work even in tests.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

this is the best post-ban comeback posting I've ever seen. Good to have you here Blocky.

 

[Bahnz]

So the battle between our prospective 3rd seamers ends Wags 1/119 and Dougeh 8/120. Obviously conditions in the Emirates are a world away from Nelson Park, but this still has to be a real feather in Doug's cap.

 

[Blocky]

So the battle between our prospective 3rd seamers ends Wags 1/119 and Dougeh 8/120. Obviously conditions in the Emirates are a world away from Nelson Park, but this still has to be a real feather in Doug's cap.

I don't think either of them are the right guys at the moment, but I'm hard pressed to name anyone else - as much as I want Mitch to perform at the longer form of the game, I just don't think his body will let him. I don't see enough in Doug to believe he'll be consistently successful in the NZ unit. At least with Wagner even if he's terribly out of form he'll still run in, be aggressive and be at the batsman.

We need our next tier of pace bowlers to start to develop in behind Boult and Southee, because at the moment if either of them gets injured we're screwed.

this is the best post-ban comeback posting I've ever seen. Good to have you here Blocky.

I wasn't actually banned.

 

[hendrix]

I don't think either of them are the right guys at the moment, but I'm hard pressed to name anyone else - as much as I want Mitch to perform at the longer form of the game, I just don't think his body will let him. I don't see enough in Doug to believe he'll be consistently successful in the NZ unit. At least with Wagner even if he's terribly out of form he'll still run in, be aggressive and be at the batsman.

We need our next tier of pace bowlers to start to develop in behind Boult and Southee, because at the moment if either of them gets injured we're screwed.

Agreed. Particularly as a 3rd seamer I'm unconvinced by Dougeh (although he has looked much better this season). Henry is the obvious candidate for a Southee replacement but he's still a couple of seasons away.

What do you think of Jacob Duffy? Probably at least 3 seasons away so very pie-in-the-sky, but I like the look of him as a potential test 3rd seamer.

 

[Kippax]

Stags had a bit of a dream result to post 1/119 against Wagner, by the looks.

 

[Bahnz]

We need our next tier of pace bowlers to start to develop in behind Boult and Southee, because at the moment if either of them gets injured we're screwed.

I dunno, Wheeler seems a pretty apt replacement for Boult should the need ever arise. 64 wickets at 25 is also very similar to Boult's FC record when he first got called up. But yeah, Southee is truly irreplaceable. Should he ever go down with injury then we'd be screwed.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

I dunno, Wheeler seems a pretty apt replacement for Boult should the need ever arise. 64 wickets at 25 is also very similar to Boult's FC record when he first got called up. But yeah, Southee is truly irreplaceable. Should he ever go down with injury then we'd be screwed.

I guess that's where we're hoping Henry will step up.

 

[Blocky]

I guess that's where we're hoping Henry will step up.

I like what I've seen from Henry, just hope he's not another Canterbury special who spends more time with injuries than he does playing.

Milne is probably getting to the point of another CD Bowler who won't perform at higher levels too. I think although our ceiling is now much higher due to the Boult's, Southee's and Wagners, we don't have the mix/depth we used to have in the O'Brien, Martin, Gillespie, Southee etc era.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Stags had a bit of a dream result to post 1/119 against Wagner, by the looks.

so much for Wagner falling over at the crease. Bit out of shaoe, but no different to what he's looked like for every test match he's played.