**Official** NatWest Challenge Thread

[maxpower]

The team is winning under Vaughan. Why would you want to depose him?

coz eng's problem in cricket is and has been the attitude, flintoff is the only guy i've seen that actually has the kinda attitude thats needed to change from what its been in the past. its hard for me to make my case as vaughan has been winning lately, but it sure has not been due to his leadership, i remember few summers ago when gough and caddick were on high and how they won matches for ENG, similar thing is happening rite now, but as soon as they will be tested and contested they will roll over.

 

[Swervy]

coz eng's problem in cricket is and has been the attitude, flintoff is the only guy i've seen that actually has the kinda attitude thats needed to change from what its been in the past. its hard for me to make my case as vaughan has been winning lately, but it sure has not been due to his leadership, i remember few summers ago when gough and caddick were on high and how they won matches for ENG, similar thing is happening rite now, but as soon as they will be tested and contested they will roll over.

well you need to have been watching vaughan captain his side this year..for me he has been top class as a captain. He obviously has the respect of his players, who enjoy his style of leadership, he is aggressive in his tactics, assertive in his leadership style,and not afraid to try things out.

The worst thing that could possibly happen to this England team is if they had 2 separate captains for tests and ODI's...this England team looks like one entity at the moment,you dont want two different teams playing under the England banner,which would happen with 2 captains

 

[Barney Rubble]

After seeing the two performances they have just delivered, I believe England could be set to make a stunning return to form and do very well in the Champions Trophy. With Flintoff looking unstoppable, Harmison reaching nigh on 94mph, Gough back in the wickets, Wharf adapting nicely, Solanki maturing fast, Giles becoming a bowler of Chris Harris proportions (no-one can hit him, no-one knows why not), and Paul Collingwood finally proving that he is a quality player after all the debate about his role, England have just as many positive attributes as any team in the competition in this form (except maybe Aus or NZ).

Optimism all around.

 

[steds]

Giles becoming a bowler of Chris Harris proportions (no-one can hit him, no-one knows why not)

Was his last ball not hit for six?

 

[maxpower]

well you need to have been watching vaughan captain his side this year..for me he has been top class as a captain. He obviously has the respect of his players, who enjoy his style of leadership, he is aggressive in his tactics, assertive in his leadership style,and not afraid to try things out.

The worst thing that could possibly happen to this England team is if they had 2 separate captains for tests and ODI's...this England team looks like one entity at the moment,you dont want two different teams playing under the England banner,which would happen with 2 captains

well what i am trying to say is eng kinda missed the boat and should have gone with filntoff to begin with. if you think vaughan is a better choice thats fine, but when they will be tested hard I feel flintoff would come out the winner b/t the 2. But at the moment why fix what ain't broke, but someday in the future when the moment comes we will both look at this post and realise I was right and you were wrong

 

[Swervy]

Optimism all around.

indeed....in the england camp anyway

but did anyone pick up on when Paul Allott asked Ganguly whether India could win on Sunday..Ganguly replied nothing is impossible'...does that sound like a defeated man????

Again, in the field Ganguly's body language was poorwhen it was going wrong...compare to vaughan when things were looking a little dicey after Indias first 15..he still looked enthusiastic and was trying different things

 

[Swervy]

well what i am trying to say is eng kinda missed the boat and should have gone with filntoff to begin with. if you think vaughan is a better choice thats fine, but when they will be tested hard I feel flintoff would come out the winner b/t the 2. But at the moment why fix what ain't broke, but someday in the future when the moment comes we will both look at this post and realise I was right and you were wrong

I am confident that Vaughan will be England captain for a long time,however I am sure Flintoff has the ability to lead an England team..eventually.

personally, I just look back to what happened to Botham when he was given the captaincy..and even more telling, what happened when the he resigned/was sacked as captain

 

[luckyeddie]

perhaps thats why he should be ODI captain and later take over from vaughn in tests aswell.

No way.

You don't take your prize asset and bury him under layers of responsibility.

Botham was a quite magnificent player of a similar mould - then they gave him the captaincy. It was a millstone which dragged him down.

 

[luckyeddie]

With Flintoff looking unstoppable, Harmison reaching nigh on 94mph

He was over 95 in the second spell

 

[steds]

No way.

You don't take your prize asset and bury him under layers of responsibility.

Botham was a quite magnificent player of a similar mould - then they gave him the captaincy. It was a millstone which dragged him down.

When Vaughan took over the captaincy he was England's prize asset. #1 batsman in the world, just spent the winter slogging the Aussies all around their own back yards...what happened to him after he was given the captaincy?...ummm, uh oh

 

[Swervy]

When Vaughan took over the captaincy he was England's prize asset. #1 batsman in the world, just spent the winter slogging the Aussies all around their own back yards...what happened to him after he was given the captaincy?...ummm, uh oh

true...but in tests he has still performed fairly well as captain...but what he brings to the team as a captain is worth more than the 7 or so runs per innings he scores less than he did on average

 

[maxpower]

IND's bowling problems have been self created, they want to go with 7 batsmen with the idea that 2 part time bowlers can be just as effective as regulars in odi, but we can see what a quality bowler can do (i.e singh 14/2). IND's strength is and has been spin and should continue with that untill pace bowlers perform "consistently". Singh and Kumble (or 2 fulltime spin bowler)have to be automatic, with pathan a regular pace bowler backed by balaji, and the fifth bowler can be according to the pitch so they can go with a full time pace bowler or use an extra batsmen and use part time bowlers.

 

[Swervy]

IND's bowling problems have been self created, they want to go with 7 batsmen with the idea that 2 part time bowlers can be just as effective as regulars in odi, but we can see what a quality bowler can do (i.e singh 14/2). IND's strength is and has been spin and should continue with that untill pace bowlers perform "consistently". Singh and Kumble (or 2 fulltime spin bowler)have to be automatic, with pathan a regular pace bowler backed by balaji, and the fifth bowler can be according to the pitch so they can go with a full time pace bowler or use an extra batsmen and use part time bowlers.

the pitch did play a major part in Harbhajans success today though you have to admit....

Did you see how Flintoff and Strauss handled Kumble the other day???

If you are looking for a weak link..look at Balaji..i am sure he will get better though.

I am just so surprised that with all the 'hype' surrounding Pathan, he really has looked fairly poor...but again, he has potential.

 

[maxpower]

the pitch did play a major part in Harbhajans success today though you have to admit....

Did you see how Flintoff and Strauss handled Kumble the other day???

If you are looking for a weak link..look at Balaji..i am sure he will get better though.

I am just so surprised that with all the 'hype' surrounding Pathan, he really has looked fairly poor...but again, he has potential.

true it was a spin wicket, but i've seen a lot of singh and he manages to keep his runs given to 35-40 on average, as for kumble i've seen him comeback again and again after being hit over and over again. my point is 2 full time spinners giving 40 runs or less is a lot better than crap bowlers giving 50+ runs. 4 bowlers going 50+ adds 20 runs more to the total, in ODI thats a lot. Pathan maybe hyped but he has potential and hes not afraid to take chances just like kumble. Don't forget spin has been IND weapon for decades, also a full time bowler can bounce back if he's being hit, part time bowler are well they are just filling the quota.

 

[luckyeddie]

I'm a great believer in choosing your best players - I don't believe that, for the most part, people ore truly ODI or test 'specialists' but there are most definitely players who develop a style or mindset which is either suited to one form of the game or prevents them being successful at the other. Look at Vaughan - I'm sure it's his mindset which is causing him such problems with the bat.

It's long been thought that the 'bits and pieces' player was useful to have in a one-dayer - to have one might well be good, to have two might even be better because of the options it offers a side - but it doesn't necessarily fiollow that increasing the number ad nauseum adds anything other than frailty to the team in general.

England today played 5 specialist bowlers in a one-dayer (I'm including Flintoff in this category because he would walk into any side in the world now as a bowler alone) - when you can do that, then your 'bits and pieces' players can become an asset.

Incidentally, I think that Vaughan did miss a trick today - during that last wicket partnership it was screaming out for the skipper to bring himself back on, give Collingwood a go or even Trescothick - anything to take the pace off the ball.

India would certainly have benefited from playing a side full of spinners today - but they weren't to know that beforehand. How often does The Oval offer that much assistance to the twirlies, and quick spin to go with the bounce?

 

[Swervy]

just to point out that England are now ranked joint 4th in the ICC ODI rankings..while India are now joint 7th!!!!!!!

 

[steds]

8th to 4th...that's a big jump for two matches

 

[Neil Pickup]

Was his last ball not hit for six?

Yes, but that was by the man-legend that is AA, so you can forgive him that.

 

[Neil Pickup]

8th to 4th...that's a big jump for two matches

We've already established that the ICC rankings are rubbish, though.

 

[Jono]

That was the worst bowling performance by a pace attack I think I have ever seen. Yes the World Cup and VB Series final were shocking, but what made this worse was they had a quality spinner like Harbhajan bowling brilliantly and bringing them back into the match, and they stuffed it up. I swear, can Balaji not bowl slow half volleys outside off stump? That's a "please hit me" ball.

It's just so frustrating, and yes I understand they are inexperienced but its so hard to watch. By the time these guys mature completely, Dravid and Sachin will be around 33 or 34, and batting could possibly weaken which doesn't help. If they had a MUCH better bowling attack now, India could possibly be a threat in world cricket. Until then, they're a batting team and will be like that for a long time.

By God what a performance from Flintoff and Collingwood though, frustrating and beautiful to watch at the same time.