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***Official*** IPL 2024

srbhkshk

International Captain
The idea that 158 is some great strike rate is nonsense. It would be among the slowest centuries in both IPL and international cricket.

Kohli was on 87(57) at the end of the 16th over. By the end of 19th he was at 100(67). That's 13 of 10 in the death overs - beyond pathetic for a set batsman but idk maybe he thought the remaining 7 batsman would all get dismissed in the one remaining over. Similarly between overs 5 and 9 he scored 14 of 16 when RCB had lost a grand total of zero wickets.

It was an okay innings but to pretend that it wasn't slower than it needed to be at multiple moments is being willfully blind.
 

RossTaylorsBox

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I mean technically it's only true that scoring slowly is sub-optimal play if your expected total is less than if you got out, but this value is obviously dependent on the number of balls left in the innings. Teams must employ a nerd who tries to work this stuff out, or maybe just give Chahal an Excel spreadsheet.

I guess the range of outcomes drastically shrinks at the end of the innings so Kohli's strategy (?) is inherently detrimental if you think the rest of the guys including Kohli himself could have bettered 26 (15) by going for broke, which I think they could have.

I disagree with hb's argument about par scores and bowling lineups though, those should be irrelevant to maximising a score.
 

RossTaylorsBox

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Surely you send out whoever is most likely to hit a 6 first ball regardless of your order. I don't watch IPL but I assume everyone does that now?
 

srbhkshk

International Captain
I mean technically it's only true that scoring slowly is sub-optimal play if your expected total is less than if you got out, but this value is obviously dependent on the number of balls left in the innings. Teams must employ a nerd who tries to work this stuff out, or maybe just give Chahal an Excel spreadsheet.
I am going to slightly extend this to explain the argument I was making at the start of this discussion about RCB's strategy. The assumption is that the end goal of a team is to maximize the number of matches they win. This is some math that might appear non-sense to some folks and I apologize for that and the length of this.

It's almost straightforward to assume that trying for more than par (conditional to the pitch) will reduce the expected value because just by definition the pitch is not conducive to that rate of scoring , the second thing it will do is increase the score variance. For most teams a par strategy is fine, just by definition a par score (conditional to the pitch) probably gives them around a 50% chance of winning. The other component to this is that for most teams the par score[P1] (conditional to the pitch) is about the same as par score[P2] (conditional to the pitch + their bowling attack).

Now we bring in the case of RCB where the bowling is terrible enough that P2 >> P1. It's hard to assign a numerical value to this but from whatever I have seen they need about 25 runs extra to compete at the same level. So, P2 ~ P1 + 25.

Now the Win% of a team is probably a sigmoidal curve centered at P2, given the shape of these curves I assume being P2 - 25 leads to a win probability of ~5%. Which I think is RCBs win %ge if they aim for and get to P1.

Now if they aim for P1, then the expected score is around P1 itself. If they aim for P2 instead the expected score is less than P1. However the key component here is that aiming for P2 is a higher variance endeavor. So across a group of 4 matches they probably end up at ~ P1 - 30 in 3 matches and P1 + 30 in 1 match. Ending up at P1 - 30 does not significantly change their winning probability (probably goes from <5% to <1%) because it was abysmal to begin with, however the one match where they end up outscoring the par, their win% shoots up from ~5% to ~60%.

P (Winning at least one match from 4 if they aim for P1.) ~ is around 19%
P (Winning at least one match from 4 if they aim for P2.) ~ is around 60%

Obviously this involves a lot of garbage numerical assumptions which can be immediately challenged and thrown out, but I am using them to mostly explain where I am at intuitively. Their team is garbage enough that they should basically be going for broke each time they play and think of maximizing wins in a group of matches instead of maximizing their expected score per match. In a sense it's no different to a weaker team dishing up a lottery pitch to the stronger team.

[All of this is actually separate from the issue wherein I think Kohli went slower than needed at phases even ignoring the need to go for broke.]
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I disagree with hb's argument about par scores and bowling lineups though, those should be irrelevant to maximising a score.
My point is they probably already thought they were maximizing it. And we have often heard from many successful players and teams how they tend to get a bit more when they go for an achievable target than an outlandish one.

And I think its silly to see cricket as some game batsmen can play against bowling machines. Bowling quality matters and I think RR was just light years ahead of RCB's there.
 

Nintendo

Cricketer Of The Year
I am going to slightly extend this to explain the argument I was making at the start of this discussion about RCB's strategy. The assumption is that the end goal of a team is to maximize the number of matches they win. This is some math that might appear non-sense to some folks and I apologize for that and the length of this.

It's almost straightforward to assume that trying for more than par (conditional to the pitch) will reduce the expected value because just by definition the pitch is not conducive to that rate of scoring , the second thing it will do is increase the score variance. For most teams a par strategy is fine, just by definition a par score (conditional to the pitch) probably gives them around a 50% chance of winning. The other component to this is that for most teams the par score[P1] (conditional to the pitch) is about the same as par score[P2] (conditional to the pitch + their bowling attack).

Now we bring in the case of RCB where the bowling is terrible enough that P2 >> P1. It's hard to assign a numerical value to this but from whatever I have seen they need about 25 runs extra to compete at the same level. So, P2 ~ P1 + 25.

Now the Win% of a team is probably a sigmoidal curve centered at P2, given the shape of these curves I assume being P2 - 25 leads to a win probability of ~5%. Which I think is RCBs win %ge if they aim for and get to P1.

Now if they aim for P1, then the expected score is around P1 itself. If they aim for P2 instead the expected score is less than P1. However the key component here is that aiming for P2 is a higher variance endeavor. So across a group of 4 matches they probably end up at ~ P1 - 30 in 3 matches and P1 + 30 in 1 match. Ending up at P1 - 30 does not significantly change their winning probability (probably goes from <5% to <1%) because it was abysmal to begin with, however the one match where they end up outscoring the par, their win% shoots up from ~5% to ~60%.

P (Winning at least one match from 4 if they aim for P1.) ~ is around 19%
P (Winning at least one match from 4 if they aim for P2.) ~ is around 60%

Obviously this involves a lot of garbage numerical assumptions which can be immediately challenged and thrown out, but I am using them to mostly explain where I am at intuitively. Their team is garbage enough that they should basically be going for broke each time they play and think of maximizing wins in a group of matches instead of maximizing their expected score per match. In a sense it's no different to a weaker team dishing up a lottery pitch to the stronger team.

[All of this is actually separate from the issue wherein I think Kohli went slower than needed at phases even ignoring the need to go for broke.]
Think this pretty much sums the issue up. Its possible to both say "kohli slowing down at the death for his 100 and at other points cost the team runs" while also acknowledging that overall it was a good innings.

On the whole, RCB have sucked this season because A. They didn't fix there issues from last season at the auction and B. There players have been ****. The fact we've spent God knows how long talking about kohli and not the fact that, you know, there best bat outside kohli is averaging 20 at a Sr of 130 and there bowlers are averaging 40 per wicket and going at 10s.

Buying green and spending pennies on inexperienced/downright bad domestic spinners ment RCB where on the backfoot to begin with. Faf, Maxwell and siraj all sucking was hard to predict, but buying a #3 like green who forces patidar out of his preferred spot and limits there overseas bowling options while not buying a decent spinner was beyond stupid, especially when they have a dude who can bat 3 and bowl overs (will jacks) already on contract.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
They also refuse to get another offie as they feel they will always have Maxwell. Which is fine, but then they should have splurged for Mayank Markhande or even the kid with CSK right now.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Early days yet, but I feel one change in CSK under Rutu than under MSD. MSD was the master of making the most of his resources which also meant he would rejig combinations to suit individuals' strengths.

CSK have so far tried to get in a left armer when the Fizz was off and now tried to get the second spinner in. I get the feeling this is the MI way of doing things when they always HAD to have a left arm fast bowler since their days of Mitch McCleneghan and one leggie etc. It looked like they wanted every left armer to play the role MM played and every leggie to play the role Mayank Markhande played etc. I understand it when it comes to the 8 overseas players where you wanna have as much of a like for like as is possible but you cant do that for the whole XI IMO. CSK need to wake up to that and realign how they play.
 

Nintendo

Cricketer Of The Year
Why on earth is manish pandey padded up as an impact sub? There's gonna be 5 overs max left when a wicket falls, it's the ideal time to send dre russ in FFS.
 

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