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*Official* Indian Domestic Season 2004/2005

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Arjun said:
Little Man Harvinder's return- It should not happen. He does not have the body! Which is why it is not surprising that his performances in Tests and ODI's are far from satisfactory.
harvinder played for India at a very young age. The very fact that he has made a come back into the Zonal side is a sign of improvement. Harvinder is still very young and when guys like S.S.Paul (unfit improper medium bowler) can come into he running for an India berth, I fail to see why with improvement, Harvinder wouldnt stand a chance. An unlikely scenario but not impossible.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I don't know why Arjun does not rate Indian keepers as batters. Kaarthick is perfectly capable of playing good knocks, it is just that at the moment he seems a little confused between playing his natural game or a more defensive game. And I have never had any problem with Parthiv as a batter. I think he is a genuine test class #7. I would like to see him score a few 100s or bigger 50s though. But that is just about it. And Dhoni, well, his style suits the one day game. I am not sure if he can hold his own in a test match either with the bat or with the gloves. But obviously, he is still not tested.


BTW, I think it would be very wrong to drop Kaarthick at this point, when he has not done much wrong. He still looks the best keeper in India and should be backed. Dhoni seems perfect for ODIs, but I still like the look of Kaarthick. His attitude is extremely good and that itself shows that he can go places.
 

adharcric

International Coach
I'm pretty sure Dhoni will keep in ODIs and Karthik will keep in Tests, at least for the pakistan series. It'll be interesting to see who gets selected among the other players.

ODI
Sehwag, Ganguly, Dravid, Laxman, Yuvraj, Kaif, Dhoni, Pathan, Khan, Harbhajan and Kumble are sure selections. That leaves four spots, two for batsmen and two for seamers (only exception is a guy like R.Powar ...).
Batsmen: Tendulkar (if fit, in), Dhawan, Jadhav, Raina, Rao, Mongia, Sriram
Bowlers: Nehra, Agarkar, Balaji, Bhandari, RP Singh, Powar

Test
Same bunch are sure selections, with Gambhir replacing Yuvraj. That leaves spots for two batsmen and two bowlers again.
Batsmen: Tendulkar (if fit, in), Yuvraj, Jadhav, Rao, Sriram, JP Yadav(ODI?)
Bowlers: Nehra, Powar, Balaji, Kartik, Gagandeep, Paul

So far the Duleep Trophy has been rather one-sided (bowlers). Hope it's because the bowlers are bowling well and not just because the pitch or batsmen are playing poorly.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
The pitch for the North/West clash in Lucknow was described by the Times of India as 'docile', where "Nehra bowled with fire, precision and imagination".

JP Yadav, SportNetwork's "poor man's Bangar", has taken 10 wickets in this match and some sensible batting by the Central Zone side could see them winning the clash. East are all out for 131, with Bangar taking 2/49 and RP Singh, 3 wickets.
S.S.Paul (unfit improper medium bowler)
Serious? He's been one of the best bowlers in action this season! He has good control over the ball, which India's frontline seamers lack. He's a tall man- one of the frontline seamers is a little too short. He's also a good fielder- another seamer struggles on the field. Worth a try in places like England.
Dhoni, well, his style suits the one day game. I am not sure if he can hold his own in a test match either with the bat or with the gloves.
His Ranji average is 72 with a strike rate of over 100. Not bad for a one-day specialist.
 

garage flower

State Vice-Captain
Arjun said:
Just in case one forgets, he can bowl for long spells, he has good control over the ball and his fielding is good- ahem, Zaheer, ahem, Nehra, ahem, Munaf...
Does the ability to take wickets come into the equation anywhere?

I can understand why you're keen to have multi-dimensional cricketers in the international teams wherever possible, but I think a good starting point for test selection is identifying the best 6 batsmen, the best 'keeper and the best 4 bowlers, irregardless of their ability in other aspects of the game.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
There are people here who took up Yuvraj's case as an opener for India in tests with unbirdled passion. Nothing could convince them that Yuvraj maybe unsuitable for the job and that Ganguly may be doing harm to his career by pushingf him up. I find that they have given up this line. Perhaps they have been chastened by Yuvraj's own unequivocal declaration that he was NOT available for the opening slot.

Clearly Yuvraj has realised his limitations and the futility and negative implications of trying to find a place in the test side by this route. His supporters here cant be expected to have seen the light (its too difficult to see light with bandages across your eyes) but they have perhaps realised that a quite withdrawl maybe a prudent strategy in this argument.

Now I find the case of SS Paul and other worthies being pushed with equal passion. I dont want to comment on most of them since I havent seen them and I know enough about the caliber of our cricket writers in India to base my opinions purely on their despatches.

Domestic figures are equally miseading for various reasons.

But lets take up the case of SS Paul, whom I have seen and the general case for other medium pacers. ....to be continued..
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
SS Paul

He is a medium pacer who moves the ball in the air and off the wicket too in helpful conditions. BUT his speed is MILITARY MEDIUM ! This is a fact. He is of Venkatesh Prasad's pace without the latters beautifully disguised variations. We forced Prasad to quit due to his lack of pace. There is no reason to promote the likes of SS Paul when the cup board is not as bare as it was ten-fifteen years ago.

SS Pauls merits, his speed, his being from Bengal (remember Dalmiya) can take him only so far and no further. I dont see any possibilty of his being a test spot contender. Those who think otherwise are welcome to carry on sleeping.

Overall new ball attack and potential of new comers.


We have, after a long time, a fairly longish list of new ball bowlers. Whatever we may opine on each individuals own merits and his place/rank in this list, the fact is that Pathan, Nehra, Balaji, Zaheer and Agarkar are not due to retire. They are not world shakers but each has, at some time or the other, won matches for India. And they have done it against quality opposition Australia, Pakistan, South Africa. No one is looking beyond them unless there is a really good talent like Irfan in the offing and that, my dear friends, is not yet the case. All these youngsters are doing reasonably well on the domestic circuit but they are not going to make major dents into the five I have named. So just cool it.

The only case there might be is for an allround player for ODI's but all round player does noy mean the Ronnie Irani's of the world. India is not going to blood a bits and pieces player unless each of his 'bits' is fairly substantial. We are not going to see Roger Binny's and Kirti Azad's playing for India again. Those days are gone and thank God for that.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
garage flower said:
Does the ability to take wickets come into the equation anywhere?

I can understand why you're keen to have multi-dimensional cricketers in the international teams wherever possible, but I think a good starting point for test selection is identifying the best 6 batsmen, the best 'keeper and the best 4 bowlers, irregardless of their ability in other aspects of the game.
The better the contol over the ball, the more the overs bowled, the greater the chances of taking wickets. The players should definitely be the best for whatever skill, but one who can contribute on the field and can do a bit of the other is more effective than one slightly better specialist who can't.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
SJS said:
There are people here who took up Yuvraj's case as an opener for India in tests with unbirdled passion. Nothing could convince them that Yuvraj maybe unsuitable for the job and that Ganguly may be doing harm to his career by pushingf him up. I find that they have given up this line. Perhaps they have been chastened by Yuvraj's own unequivocal declaration that he was NOT available for the opening slot.

Clearly Yuvraj has realised his limitations and the futility and negative implications of trying to find a place in the test side by this route. His supporters here cant be expected to have seen the light (its too difficult to see light with bandages across your eyes) but they have perhaps realised that a quite withdrawl maybe a prudent strategy in this argument.

Now I find the case of SS Paul and other worthies being pushed with equal passion. I dont want to comment on most of them since I havent seen them and I know enough about the caliber of our cricket writers in India to base my opinions purely on their despatches.

Domestic figures are equally miseading for various reasons.

But lets take up the case of SS Paul, whom I have seen and the general case for other medium pacers. ....to be continued..
I am not sure if you meant me by that comment, but I would like to state my stance on that issue. I never thought that Yuvi would succeed at the top of the order. All I said was that, because Sourav has generally been right with his moves as captain, it is worth a shot. Even then, I said that, personally, I did not see him succeeding as an opener. In fact, even now I do not see him succeeding as a test batsman, because he is definitely wanting against a moving ball and with reverse swing, these days even the old ball moves.



Having said that, I have to say that I generally agree with SJS's comments about bowlers. It is the same reason why Kaarthick should not be dropped for Dhoni AT THE MOMENT. He has not done too much wrong as yet and I think he deserves 3 tests against Pakistan. And one more thing about Dhoni's Ranji record, he plays for a tier II team, I believe. And that has to be taken into account while reading his stats.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
About....

Yuvraj is not an opener
He never was. Whatever Yuvraj could do at the top, Ganguly or Tendulkar could do better. He never had the experience, save a first-class match for Punjab and a practice match against India-A. He did not have the technique to handle the moving ball, which any opener should have. He struggled against the rising delivery a few times. If he should make an entry into the Test suqad, he must improve his game against spinners. He scored a hundred of 114 deliveries, which is good. He got after two of the best spinners in India in that innings, which shows that he can be quite destructive, yet build a long innings. He should do this more often in international matches than he does- playing lazy shots won't work.
SS Paul is only medium-pace!
That can be said of every pace bowler who has played for India in the recent past. None of them are genuinely quick. That is why they should be more accurate, last long spells and have good control over the ball, like SS Paul has. He is in good form and even though he's only medium-pace (like every other Indian 'fast' bowler), he puts the ball in the right spot. Zaheer and Agarkar bowl in the 130's (hardly anything to talk about) but bowl all over the place, so they struggle even on pitches mae for them. On the other hand, SS Paul, Gagandeep and NP Singh of Hyderabad have good control over the ball, making them more effective in such places. However, if someone bowls at express pace, he deserves mroe opportunities at the FC level, as well as professional help to put his skills to the best use.
I don't know why Arjun does not rate Indian keepers as batters.
None of them can win matches with the bat. They can't displace anyone from their team's top batsmen. Moreover, none of those so-called wicketkeeper-batsmen are good with the gloves. A certain Vinayak Samant is rated highly by experts- his coach says that his glovework is the best in India. These days, fielding is a very important aspect of the game and that includes wicketkeeping- the centre of all fielding activity. For a very average bowling attack, the fielding support has to be top-notch.

The Australians can win a tournament without McGrath or Warne or even without Gillespie and Lee as well, because they have enough fielding strength to make up for the lack of quality in bowling. The Pakistanis have had a powerful bowling attack (Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Saqlain, Mushtaq Ahmed) but the fielding has let them down repeatedly, even against a weaker bowling side like SL, who can field better. The Indians ave an average bowling attack, but they can be more penetrative if the fielding supports them better.
The team doesn't need more Ronnie Iranis
That player in question was a very average medium-pacer, no-hoper with the bat save one innings and immobile on the field. What the Indian team needs are all-rounders in the top domestic rankings for either skill. They need a bowler who can not only score runs but is also in good form with the ball, and a batsman who can contribute more than a few overs and take wickets. Here, Reetinder Sodhi, Ramesh Powar, Jai Prakash Yadav and S Vidyut come into the picture, but not the Bangar types. However, if Irfan Pathan can put his batting skills (particularly his big-hitting) to good use, or if Sehwag can bowl 10 overs an innings, that can help the team a lot.

The bowling attack needs two strike bowlers who can take the bulk of the 20 wickets in a Test match. The rest may just provide them support, so they don't have much to do. That's why they need to contribute with the bat as well. There are four or five bowlers, but only two of them lead, so ideally the others have to score more with the bat. However, there is only one wicketkeeper, so it should be your best man. It is better to have a Ramesh Powar or JP Yadav in the side than a Deep Dasgupta.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
And one more thing about Dhoni's Ranji record, he plays for a tier II team, I believe.
That is one mistake made by the selectors. You have someone who is not only talented, but useful, but he's left out because he's from a Tier II team, while an extra playing for an Elite side gets in. That tier system does not alone tell how good a player he is, but stat sheets as well as video clips do. Moreover, he has been the leading batsman for his team and has taken them to the semis with his batting. He's not got runs against Tier II teams alone- he has got a century or two against a Pakistan A side.
 

adharcric

International Coach
Well yeah, but at least there are things like Deodhar, Challenger and Duleep trophy where the best players, and not just the top-tier-team players compete.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
yeah and he hasn't covered himself with glory there either, has he? And about keepers being matchwinners with the bat, no ONE is. Except Adam Gilchrist and trust me he doesn't do that consistently either. A keeper is expected to help out a side when they are in a difficult situation and to pick up the scoring rate when they are going well and I think all 3 guys in contention now are quite capable of that. Not every team are gonna find a Gilly.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
honestbharani said:
yeah and he hasn't covered himself with glory there either, has he? And about keepers being matchwinners with the bat, no ONE is. Except Adam Gilchrist and trust me he doesn't do that consistently either. A keeper is expected to help out a side when they are in a difficult situation and to pick up the scoring rate when they are going well and I think all 3 guys in contention now are quite capable of that. Not every team are gonna find a Gilly.
It is unfair to compare Adam Gilchrist with other wicketkeepers of his time- none of them even come close in balance and quality. Instead, he should be compared with Flintoff, Cairns, Kallis, Klusener, Pollock and other genuine all-rounders of today- he is one himself. He may not win matches consistently, but he's one of the reasons why the Australian team have won so many matches- they have an attacking number 7 who can bat as well as the top six and fall back on an extra skill.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Dhoni has an average of 48 in the Deodhar Trophy, with a strike rate of over 100. He has not yet taken off in the Duleep Trophy, so he is due a big score. However, he is the top batsman in his side and he is their keeper, which is not bad at all.
 

viktor

State Vice-Captain
Arjun said:
It is unfair to compare Adam Gilchrist with other wicketkeepers of his time- none of them even come close in balance and quality. Instead, he should be compared with Flintoff, Cairns, Kallis, Klusener, Pollock and other genuine all-rounders of today- he is one himself. He may not win matches consistently, but he's one of the reasons why the Australian team have won so many matches- they have an attacking number 7 who can bat as well as the top six and fall back on an extra skill.
I hope u mean no comparison in quality wrt to batting, i hope... cos as a keeper he isn't that far ahead of his contemporaries.
 
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honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I believe that I have heard Gilly say something about how he is more relaxed when batting since it is not his primary job and how that helps him to go for his shots freely. I think guys like Dhoni and Kaarthik should do that as well, not because it will make them as good as Gilly, but because by atleast playing their natural game, they increase their chances of doing well.
 

adharcric

International Coach
damn when is india releasing its test squad for the pak series .. getting anxious

i would have gambhir, sehwag, dravid, tendulkar, laxman, kaif, ganguly, yuvraj, karthik, harbhajan, kumble, pathan, zaheer, nehra, balaji/powar
 

adharcric

International Coach
adharcric said:
damn when is india releasing its test squad for the pak series .. getting anxious

i would have gambhir, sehwag, dravid, tendulkar, laxman, kaif, ganguly, yuvraj, karthik, harbhajan, kumble, pathan, zaheer, nehra, balaji/powar
add on jp yadav as a distant possibility along with balaji and powar after what he did in the duleep trophy match.
 

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