***Official*** India in South Africa 2021-22

[Xix2565]

Watch Steyn vs Tendulkar Cape Town and come back to me... the number of bowlers that would have produced that spell are few, the number of batsmen to withstand that are also few. I understand its an extreme example, but it gets the point across.

It really doesn't. Dale Steyn being Dale Steyn is a fact in of itself, not the answer to my queries on your feelings (and this is just feelings based on remembering great spells that can easily be countered with memories of this Indian pace lineup doing incredible stuff). It's just selective bias showing.

 

[centurymaker]

I actually believe India should rest Shami for the next test if he is even 90%.. He will be the next bowler to go down otherwise! I feel he is injury prone and he did indeed look cooked by Day 4.

Umesh replaces Siraj.

And Ishant to replace Shami. Although Ishant is not at the same level as before, his height may be key. And he did bowl well in a couple of games in England. So in favourable conditions he can probably still do the job!

SA batsmen seemed to have got the hang of the current Indian attack, they looked so settled, so you want to add 2 new bowlers to add a bit of a suprise element. Plus being fresh —they can maybe bowl more overs, without looking cooked by 2nd innings, as was the case with Shami.

 

[centurymaker]

And yes Rahul was piss poor as captain- had no energy and looked anxious as well as out of ideas.

Huge mistake that Rahane wasn’t given the captaincy for one-off match.

 

[Heboric]

SA batsmen seemed to have got the hang of the current Indian attack, they looked so settled, so you want to add 2 new bowlers to add a bit of a suprise element. Plus being fresh —they can maybe bowl more overs, without looking cooked by 2nd innings, as was the case with Shami.

They didnt seem to have an answer to Thakur in their first innings

 

[honestbharani]

But none of those bowlers worry me

I think it is mainly because Siraj and Shardul literally made their debut about a year ago. I dont think you are giving weightage to how bowling as an attack works. Individually no one may seem that big for sure and there is a lot of time before any of them reach great, forget ATG, status. But I mean I literally felt fully comfortable both tests watching RSA bowl and did not think anyone was gonna blow away our batting and they did not. And remember this is a batting line up that can very easily be blown away in overseas conditions. We have been 36/9 and 78 all out with pretty much the same top 5/6 batters. And yet, not even once have I thought in this series so far that RSA were gonna blow away our batting. And tbh, there were like 4 leg side strangles out of 20 wickets anyways which is a much higher percentage than normal. I just think neither of the pitches have been so bad as to trigger crazy collapses and you could have had Starc, Cummins, Anderson and Broad together here and I still dont think a sub 100 score was possible unless the batting line up really really blew it.

South Africa played really really well and I will credit Markram first, coz his counter attack gave them a sub 200 target in no time and helped Elgar play himself in for a typical Elgar good knock in tests. And I think that attack made India go searching for wickets and magic balls a lot more than is usual for them and they paid the price for moving away from their game plan.

You gotta realize this attack basically won tests they had no right to win twice in England in conditions which were flatter than what we had in Jo'burg. It is definitely one of our weaker performances with the ball post pandemic, perhaps the weakest.


EDIT: Juz realized a couple of lines came across harsher than what I was actually thinking. Sorry @StephenZA if you took offence. Have corrected them now.

 

[StephenZA]

I think it is mainly because Siraj and Shardul literally made their debut about a year ago. I dont think you understand how bowling as an attack works. Individually no one may seem that big, I mean I literally felt fully comfortable both tests watching RSA bowl and did not think anyone was gonna blow away our batting and they did not. And remember this is a batting line up that can very easily be blown away in overseas conditions. We have been 36/9 and 78 all out with pretty much the same top 5/6 batters. And yet, not even once have I thought in this series so far that RSA were gonna blow away our batting. And tbh, there were like 4 leg side strangles out of 20 wickets anyways which is a much higher percentage than normal. I just think neither of the pitches have been so bad as to trigger crazy collapses and you could have had Starc, Cummins, Anderson and Broad together here and I still dont think a sub 100 score was possible unless the batting line up really really blew it.

South Africa played really really well and I will credit Markram first, coz his counter attack gave them a sub 200 target in no time and helped Elgar play himself in for a typical Elgar good knock in tests. And I think that attack made India go searching for wickets and magic balls a lot more than is usual for them and they paid the price for moving away from their game plan.

You gotta realize this attack basically won tests they had no right to win twice in England in conditions which were flatter than what we had in Jo'burg. It is definitely one of our weaker performances with the ball post pandemic, perhaps the weakest.

I have never said I think that SA current fast bowling attack is better. I think that they may have the potential to reach a higher ceiling, but that is a different discussion. I also agree that this Indian attack has won games in some incredible circumstances. The question is, is this the norm for this attack and bowlers in it, or are they having a good period? For me they having a good period, but those few good performances (against some questionable batting line-ups) do feel like the exception rather than the rule. And I think in time this will be proven true. I`m not saying they are terrible, but I do feel they are being hyped beyond. But I`m not pretending this is anything than my opinion.

 

[honestbharani]

I have never said I think that SA current fast bowling attack is better. I think that they may have the potential to reach a higher ceiling, but that is a different discussion. I also agree that this Indian attack has won games in some incredible circumstances. The question is, is this the norm for this attack and bowlers in it, or are they having a good period? For me they having a good period, but those few good performances (against some questionable batting line-ups) do feel like the exception rather than the rule. And I think in time this will be proven true. I`m not saying they are terrible, but I do feel they are being hyped beyond. But I`m not pretending this is anything than my opinion.

Fair enough. I dont think that is true at all. So we will see.

 

[Shri]

you don't have to play atg players every time if you are a top team

nel, hayward, bichel, ojha, boje, botha, hall, langeveldt, fleming, kasprowicz etc are still good players who did a job

thakur and the backups after our main bowlers fill a niche role and are great for what they are (lord just happens to have a **** load of flair to him and that brings him fans and causes angst to opposition lol)

who cares if they cause worry? they are supports who can shine on their own at times

 

[cnerd123]

And yes Rahul was piss poor as captain- had no energy and looked anxious as well as out of ideas.

Huge mistake that Rahane wasn’t given the captaincy for one-off match.

It would really surprise me if an individual captain had such a big influence on a team's strategies and tactics all on his own. Especially in this day and age. There are several coaches, layers of data analysis, and a bunch of senior heads in the team too. Teams talk about 'leadership groups' and 'strategy meetings' and 'doing their homework' all the time.

If the Indian team strategies are set by the captain and the captain alone, then that is the bigger concern. At this level there has to be more input from other individuals and plans laid out before they take the field that the entrie team should be briefed on.

I don't like it when people credit Kohli with all the success of the side, and similarly don't like it when Lokesh cops all the blame. I don't think that's how things work.

 

[Shri]

If the Indian team strategies are set by the captain and the captain alone, then that is the bigger concern. At this level there has to be more input from other individuals and plans laid out before they take the field that the entrie team should be briefed on.

bc if you think players played with same attitude under kim hughes and border you are delusional

 

[Apex Predator]

I think India needs to find a way past Elgar if they can come up with a plan on Smith & Marnus so they can conjure something for Elgar as well. I feel he is single handedly making all of em lose their minds & Indians do struggle when a left handers bats for too long.
I still believe SA batting is there for the taking but someone has to take out Elgar early. He is the one standing between a Indian series victory

 

[Apex Predator]

Rahul is getting so much flak for his body language & meek attitude but opening with Ashwin under lights I guess would be Dravid's call for sure. I haven't enjoyed whatever I have seen from him in this short stint so far.

 

[cnerd123]

bc if you think players played with same attitude under kim hughes and border you are delusional

I agree the captain sets the culture and vibes~ of the team, and I do give Kohli credit for that. If anything, that's the most important job a captain does and Lokesh perhaps not great at it.

But on strategies and tactics specifically, I think that's more of a team effort than the captain's.

 

[Heboric]

Will Supersport comms go on and on to ad nauseam the head to head beween the two teams at Newlands like they did at the Wanderers

 

[GotSpin]

Lucky India have a squad of the 30 best players in the world to call upon

 

[Xix2565]

Will Supersport comms go on and on to ad nauseam the head to head beween the two teams at Newlands like they did at the Wanderers

They do need to milk something.

 

[centurymaker]

I think India needs to find a way past Elgar if they can come up with a plan on Smith & Marnus so they can conjure something for Elgar as well. I feel he is single handedly making all of em lose their minds & Indians do struggle when a left handers bats for too long.
I still believe SA batting is there for the taking but someone has to take out Elgar early. He is the one standing between a Indian series victory

Yes you are spot on about Elgar. He is the main man plus the ONLY leftie. Him batting so long with all the righties was disrupting the lines of Indian bowlers A LOT as SA was allowed easy singles so 2 balls they had to bowl to him and then 3 balls at right-hander and then final ball at Elgar again. It was clearly causing them to spray balls around, having to alternate so much between left and right hand batter.

So yes ONLY if he goes early or early-ish, there could be a chance for Indian bowlers to nicely settle into a line offside off against all the right handers.

But it is a big 'if' atm because he is hell determined to not lose his wicket. He will play and miss 40 times but pull his bat out everytime or take hand off the bat to make the edge fall short. Guy will not lose his wicket so idk.

 

[artvandalay]

Other than the fact its not an over reaction about anything... its an opinion that I`ve held as a SA supporter long before this tour. I don't think that the Indian bowling attack is as special as is being portrayed. I do think they bowl well as a unit, I do think that many of them have surpassed themselves in many spells. I also think that in general there is a dearth of quality batting line ups world wide and some decent juicy pitches. This is not an Indian bowling line-up (or bowlers) that I look at and think they could get anybody out at any time, I think that they are a bowling line-up putting pressure on batsmen that are not always of test quality standard, who are failing.

In no way does this not make India a good team, or arguably the best team in the world at the moment, or a better team than SA. My point is simply I think that bowling is not as special as some portray it.

You're not in the wrong in the main but since you mentioned broad and Anderson to illustrate your point in the previous post it feels like you're judging on reputation more than you're willing to admit.
Indian fans aren't saying that they're the best ever attack out there, but it's definitely up there with the Australian one imo even if it's strengths are different but it could coast under the radar because it's from India.

 

[subshakerz]

So I don't normally like criticizing other teams players and I think India is an exceptional team. But I do think that Indian supporters are overblowing the quality of their seam attack. It is a very good attack, and they have very good control, but it feels like an attack that does a job without being scary. I understand at certain points that Thakur, Siraj, Shami and Bumrah have all bowled excellent spells. But none of those bowlers worry me, I don't think that they are going to bowl my side out. They need a newish ball in favourable conditions, and batsmen feeling the pressure and playing loose strokes. I think the fact that SA has an inexperienced batting line-up is the scary part as a SA supporter.

As an extreme example, I worry about every time Cummins comes on to bowl for Aus against SA just because he can do something special. Or a Broad, or Anderson. When you watched Rabada's spell there felt like an inevitability that he would start taking wickets, and possibly change the game, regardless of who was batting. I just never get that feeling with the current Indian bowlers bowling. Maybe it is a mindset because it is an Indian fast bowler, but I do remember feeling that sometimes with Zaheer Khan (always rated him).

I say all this because chasing down that total never felt like it was 'would the Indian bowlers get SA batsmen out', it felt more along the lines 'did the SA batsmen have the fortitude to survive and get the total'. The pitch was doing a bit here and there but it was not unplayable, and Wanderers always has the potential to be a fast scoring ground once you are in.

As an aside, I am very old school, and believe you play your best 6 batsmen, 4 best bowlers and wk. Hopefully their is a decent allrounder and wk/batsmen in there. I think this 5 bowler strategy of India is hurting them long term.

I agree to a certain extent. I think Bumrah is an exception. He is clearly worldclass material. In fact, I don't think he is treated like a leader of the attack that he should be. Often times, I get the impression that the captain considers him one of the pack rather than prop him up as the main man which he should be.

 

[Kirkut]

So I don't normally like criticizing other teams players and I think India is an exceptional team. But I do think that Indian supporters are overblowing the quality of their seam attack. It is a very good attack, and they have very good control, but it feels like an attack that does a job without being scary. I understand at certain points that Thakur, Siraj, Shami and Bumrah have all bowled excellent spells. But none of those bowlers worry me, I don't think that they are going to bowl my side out. They need a newish ball in favourable conditions, and batsmen feeling the pressure and playing loose strokes. I think the fact that SA has an inexperienced batting line-up is the scary part as a SA supporter.

As an extreme example, I worry about every time Cummins comes on to bowl for Aus against SA just because he can do something special. Or a Broad, or Anderson. When you watched Rabada's spell there felt like an inevitability that he would start taking wickets, and possibly change the game, regardless of who was batting. I just never get that feeling with the current Indian bowlers bowling. Maybe it is a mindset because it is an Indian fast bowler, but I do remember feeling that sometimes with Zaheer Khan (always rated him).

I say all this because chasing down that total never felt like it was 'would the Indian bowlers get SA batsmen out', it felt more along the lines 'did the SA batsmen have the fortitude to survive and get the total'. The pitch was doing a bit here and there but it was not unplayable, and Wanderers always has the potential to be a fast scoring ground once you are in.

As an aside, I am very old school, and believe you play your best 6 batsmen, 4 best bowlers and wk. Hopefully their is a decent allrounder and wk/batsmen in there. I think this 5 bowler strategy of India is hurting them long term.

Would not disagree with this post until I read Broad and Anderson. Both are great bowlers but not the ones who would instill fear.

Broad in early 2010s? Yes almost Ambrosesque, but not much after that barring that 8-15 spell.