***Official*** India in South Africa 2021-22

[Shri]

did we not have one of the founders of this website as a member her who got mocked all the time a year or two ago

 

[Shri]

So I don't normally like criticizing other teams players and I think India is an exceptional team. But I do think that Indian supporters are overblowing the quality of their seam attack. It is a very good attack, and they have very good control, but it feels like an attack that does a job without being scary. I understand at certain points that Thakur, Siraj, Shami and Bumrah have all bowled excellent spells. But none of those bowlers worry me, I don't think that they are going to bowl my side out. They need a newish ball in favourable conditions, and batsmen feeling the pressure and playing loose strokes. I think the fact that SA has an inexperienced batting line-up is the scary part as a SA supporter.

As an extreme example, I worry about every time Cummins comes on to bowl for Aus against SA just because he can do something special. Or a Broad, or Anderson. When you watched Rabada's spell there felt like an inevitability that he would start taking wickets, and possibly change the game, regardless of who was batting. I just never get that feeling with the current Indian bowlers bowling. Maybe it is a mindset because it is an Indian fast bowler, but I do remember feeling that sometimes with Zaheer Khan (always rated him).

I say all this because chasing down that total never felt like it was 'would the Indian bowlers get SA batsmen out', it felt more along the lines 'did the SA batsmen have the fortitude to survive and get the total'. The pitch was doing a bit here and there but it was not unplayable, and Wanderers always has the potential to be a fast scoring ground once you are in.

As an aside, I am very old school, and believe you play your best 6 batsmen, 4 best bowlers and wk. Hopefully their is a decent allrounder and wk/batsmen in there. I think this 5 bowler strategy of India is hurting them long term.

ok

 

[StephenZA]

There was a 5 minute period after Rassie's wicket yesterday where India could have picked up Elgar and Temba both, but luck didn't go their way. Small moments like that can change a game. India didn't have much luck in both bowling innings.

I do think people over estimate the luck element sometimes. As a batsmen you will consistently miss and give half chance here and there, particularly in SA. If all are taken and go perfect like that you end up with the 47 a.o. numbers... but that the exception not the rule.

 

[StephenZA]

ok

no problems!

 

[Shri]

rahul is a brain dead moron as a captain who opened with bumrah and ashwin when the lights were on and clouds around

instead of opening with the swing bowler in the XI who had already taken 8 in the match along with shami

they ****ed up the basics and paid the price

kohli will not make such simple ****ing mistakes as a captain when he returns in cape town and the bowlers will look threatening again

rahul is the least inspiring player to ever play lots of games for india in the last decade and the **** shouldn't be captain

 

[Starfighter]

ok

But like really. I'd be much more afraid of the Indian attack (except Thakur) in less favourable conditions than Broad and Anderson.

 

[Starfighter]

rahul is a brain dead moron as a captain who opened with bumrah and ashwin when the lights were on and clouds around

instead of opening with the swing bowler in the XI who had already taken 8 in the match along with shami

they ****ed up the basics and paid the price

kohli will not make such simple ****ing mistakes as a captain when he returns in cape town and the bowlers will look threatening again

rahul is the least inspiring player to ever play lots of games for india in the last decade and the **** shouldn't be captain

Why did Rahul captain? I know Rahane's in dire straits with the bat, but he did a great job as captain in Australia. And it's just a stand in for one test.

 

[karan_fromthestands]

These are the same bowlers who have given us great results overall, so I would trust them to have some sort of plan in whatever they were doing. They did look a little burnt out on day 4 IMO, and credit to Elgar as he was sticking around and making them toil.

 

[cnerd123]

I do think people over estimate the luck element sometimes. As a batsmen you will consistently miss and give half chance here and there, particularly in SA. If all are taken and go perfect like that you end up with the 47 a.o. numbers... but that the exception not the rule.

yea exactly. Credit has to be give to Rassie and Elgar for surviving the way they did. India have bowled like this in the past but with better returns. Often Shami/Bumrah/Thakur will produce an unplayable ball during a pretty ordinary spell and suddenly the game changes. In fact it was a spell like that from Bumrah that won us the last Test. These are not guys who generally probe away bowling dry and get wickets as a result.

The bowling orders and fields were off, true, but the bowling quality itself up until the last 5 overs or so wasn't that bad. With a bit more luck, perhaps better strategies, they end up taking a few more wickets early on and then you have a different game.

Also have to factor in how crucial it was to lose Siraj to injury. We were a bowler short. Always hard to win a Test when you score 100 below par in the first dig and then lose a strike bowler.

 

[karan_fromthestands]

Why did Rahul captain? I know Rahane's in dire straits with the bat, but he did a great job as captain in Australia. And it's just a stand in for one test.

Would be interesting to know who was behind this(hopefully not Kolhi). Rahane has been brilliant and it was just a one-off situation, would have been better to go with him as the captain.

 

[cnerd123]

Why did Rahul captain? I know Rahane's in dire straits with the bat, but he did a great job as captain in Australia. And it's just a stand in for one test.

he's seen as the future of Indian captaincy so I guess they were grooming him. Is Rohit's stand in for the white-ball stuff too.

Plus Rahane has enough on his plate trying to save his spot in the XI, guess they either wanted to send the signal to him that his spot is on the line, or didn't want to overburden him.

 

[Xix2565]

As an extreme example, I worry about every time Cummins comes on to bowl for Aus against SA just because he can do something special. Or a Broad, or Anderson. When you watched Rabada's spell there felt like an inevitability that he would start taking wickets, and possibly change the game, regardless of who was batting. I just never get that feeling with the current Indian bowlers bowling. Maybe it is a mindset because it is an Indian fast bowler, but I do remember feeling that sometimes with Zaheer Khan (always rated him).

I say all this because chasing down that total never felt like it was 'would the Indian bowlers get SA batsmen out', it felt more along the lines 'did the SA batsmen have the fortitude to survive and get the total'. The pitch was doing a bit here and there but it was not unplayable, and Wanderers always has the potential to be a fast scoring ground once you are in.

I mean did we just forget Bumrah putting on a clinical spell at the Oval to crush England's hopes, or the Lord's Test where we "gave them hell" for 51.5 overs? This feels a lot like an overreaction based on SA doing well at the Wanderers when we just saw this pace attack keep SA below 200 twice in Centurion.

The main reasons 5 bowlers overseas seems to hurt us is because our better bats in the bowling department are great spinners and the management is still sticking with Pujara and Rahane despite their poor run.

Why did Rahul captain? I know Rahane's in dire straits with the bat, but he did a great job as captain in Australia. And it's just a stand in for one test.

Rahul was vice captain at Centurion, so he got promoted.

 

[StephenZA]

I mean did we just forget Bumrah putting on a clinical spell at the Oval to crush England's hopes, or the Lord's Test where we "gave them hell" for 51.5 overs? This feels a lot like an overreaction based on SA doing well at the Wanderers when we just saw this pace attack keep SA below 200 twice in Centurion.

Other than the fact its not an over reaction about anything... its an opinion that I`ve held as a SA supporter long before this tour. I don't think that the Indian bowling attack is as special as is being portrayed. I do think they bowl well as a unit, I do think that many of them have surpassed themselves in many spells. I also think that in general there is a dearth of quality batting line ups world wide and some decent juicy pitches. This is not an Indian bowling line-up (or bowlers) that I look at and think they could get anybody out at any time, I think that they are a bowling line-up putting pressure on batsmen that are not always of test quality standard, who are failing.

In no way does this not make India a good team, or arguably the best team in the world at the moment, or a better team than SA. My point is simply I think that bowling is not as special as some portray it.

 

[Xix2565]

Other than the fact its not an over reaction about anything... its an opinion that I`ve held as a SA supporter long before this tour. I don't think that the Indian bowling attack is as special as is being portrayed. I do think they bowl well as a unit, I do think that many of them have surpassed themselves in many spells. I also think that in general there is a dearth of quality batting line ups world wide and some decent juicy pitches. This is not an Indian bowling line-up (or bowlers) that I look at and think they could get anybody out at any time, I think that they are a bowling line-up putting pressure on batsmen that are not always of test quality standard, who are failing.

In no way does this not make India a good team, or arguably the best team in the world at the moment, or a better team than SA. My point is simply I think that bowling is not as special as some portray it.

Does the same not apply to any of the people you've mentioned who're supposedly capable of taking wickets at any time? That they're just putting pressure on batters who can't handle it all that well? Is that not just a normal habit all bowlers have, to put pressure on those batting to force errors and wickets, rather than anything special that belongs to only a few bowlers? Feels like you want a conclusion to work backwards from rather than the other way around.

 

[karan_fromthestands]

Other than the fact its not an over reaction about anything... its an opinion that I`ve held as a SA supporter long before this tour. I don't think that the Indian bowling attack is as special as is being portrayed. I do think they bowl well as a unit, I do think that many of them have surpassed themselves in many spells. I also think that in general there is a dearth of quality batting line ups world wide and some decent juicy pitches. This is not an Indian bowling line-up (or bowlers) that I look at and think they could get anybody out at any time, I think that they are a bowling line-up putting pressure on batsmen that are not always of test quality standard, who are failing.

In no way does this not make India a good team, or arguably the best team in the world at the moment, or a better team than SA. My point is simply I think that bowling is not as special as some portray it.

I think it is.

Ash/Jaddu/Axar are safely the best spin bowling trio at the moment, all capable of single handedly winning games in the SC. If none of them are available, we have Kuldeep, Sundar and Jayant Yadav.

Bumrah and Shami produce match winning spells every now and then(plus we have the likes of Siraj, Umesh, etc. who can support the lead bowlers or even play as our lead bowlers whenever we need them). We even have some youngsters in-line who are very bright prospects - Shivam Mavi, Kartik Tyagi, Umran Malik, etc.

The thing about the Indian pace bowlers is, they are doing well in most conditions. For e.g. Broad and Anderson might do better than them in England but what happens when they go to Australia?

 

[OverratedSanity]

I do think people over estimate the luck element sometimes. As a batsmen you will consistently miss and give half chance here and there, particularly in SA. If all are taken and go perfect like that you end up with the 47 a.o. numbers... but that the exception not the rule.

Yeah particularly when this kind of luck is something the batsman kind of has a hand in. Like, batsmen like Elgar and many other good top order batsmen's ability to safely miss the ball when it moves away is baked into their technique.

If he was wrongly given not out and dropped 4 times or something that's a different story. But having the ball beat the bat and not lose your composure is a legit skill. This "false shot %" thing never really sits right with me tbh. Batsmen often play the percentages and its not always a black or white thing whether a shot is false or not. Especially in tough conditions.

 

[StephenZA]

Does the same not apply to any of the people you've mentioned who're supposedly capable of taking wickets at any time? That they're just putting pressure on batters who can't handle it all that well? Is that not just a normal habit all bowlers have, to put pressure on those batting to force errors and wickets, rather than anything special that belongs to only a few bowlers? Feels like you want a conclusion to work backwards from rather than the other way around.

Watch Steyn vs Tendulkar Cape Town and come back to me... the number of bowlers that would have produced that spell are few, the number of batsmen to withstand that are also few. I understand its an extreme example, but it gets the point across.

 

[centurymaker]

Other than the fact its not an over reaction about anything... its an opinion that I`ve held as a SA supporter long before this tour. I don't think that the Indian bowling attack is as special as is being portrayed. I do think they bowl well as a unit, I do think that many of them have surpassed themselves in many spells. I also think that in general there is a dearth of quality batting line ups world wide and some decent juicy pitches. This is not an Indian bowling line-up (or bowlers) that I look at and think they could get anybody out at any time, I think that they are a bowling line-up putting pressure on batsmen that are not always of test quality standard, who are failing.

In no way does this not make India a good team, or arguably the best team in the world at the moment, or a better team than SA. My point is simply I think that bowling is not as special as some portray it.

Yeah I agree. Bowling attack doesn’t instil any fear. Although it is a good attack, it’s not out of the world. It gets the job done more often than not but it is not ATG level or anything in away conditions. At home it is a different story.

 

[StephenZA]

I think it is.

And that is fair enough.

Ash/Jaddu/Axar are safely the best spin bowling trio at the moment, all capable of single handedly winning games in the SC. If none of them are available, we have Kuldeep, Sundar and Jayant Yadav.

I have been talking about the pace bowling. Sorry I was not so clear in that last statement. I also commented during game that Ashwin is the only bowler that truly scares me in the Indian line up as a SA supporter.

 

[Shri]

he's seen as the future of Indian captaincy so I guess they were grooming him.

ffs

shreyas better