***Official India in New Zealand***

[R_D]

Hope yuvraj doesn't make a fifty here....

 

[silentstriker]

Haha, just came in here to say that it's one of those no pressure situations perfect for \Yuvraj to make a 50 to buy himself another two games.

 

[Days of Grace]

What happened ?

John Bracewell is what happened.

I don't care what anyone else thinks. Bracewell has been almost the single reason why many of our players retired early and close together and why are batting and all-round mental fortitude has gone to ****.

The man is the anti-christ to NZC. Justin Vaughan must also take a little blame for selling Bond up the river.

 

[Nutter]

O'Brien you beauty.

Man Bond was such a huge loss. NZC deserve this sh*t.

 

[sammy2]

I have never seen country walsh or ambrose bowling without a third man.... Actually, walsh was normally at third man.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

John Bracewell is what happened.

I don't care what anyone else thinks. Bracewell has been almost the single reason why many of our players retired early and close together and why are batting and all-round mental fortitude has gone to ****.

The man is the anti-christ to NZC. Justin Vaughan must also take a little blame for selling Bond up the river.

Exactly. Braces should take the blame for losing all our experienced top order players in short succession. Whilst this may mean our youngsters gain that valuable experience at a younger age, this has caused major short-term damage.

Even if Fleming was still out there; leading the team and batting at #3 that'd make a significant difference, I suspect.

 

[biased indian]

hope we get atleast 100-120 overs to bowl at them in second inngs should be little bit more hard to get them out second time around

 

[Flem274*]

I am not sure staying in the top 8 (with Zimbabwe and Bangladesh at 9 and 10) you are setting much of a bar height are you?

I think New Zealand have been a good fighting unit for a number of reasons. First and foremost they are close to being the best fielding side in the world for a very long time and that makes a lot of difference.

Two, I think the spirit in the Kiwi sides has been something we have always admired. They have always been fighters and have made the most of their limited resources. In the last decade, Fleming has to get a lot of credit for making this side a difficult one to beat.

Three they had built up, from the mid/late nineties onwards, a good side which had a settled look about it so that around the turn of the century they had a phalanx of cricketers which could be built upon and the future looked rosy.

What happened ? Have a look.

I looked at the Kiwi stats from Jan 1997 till date to look at the leading batsmen and bowlers. I set a simple criteria for a good experienced Test cricketer. For the batsmen, I set 2000 runs in Test cricket and a batting average above 35 (Not a big deal in modern times)

Guess how many people qualified? Five. The last of them, Fleming retired last year. The others retired much earlier.

• Richardson (2004)
• Cairns (2004)
• MacMillan (2005)
• Astle (2006)

So other than Fleming New Zealand lost their top notchers between three and five years ago.

Try reducing that 2000 run limit to 1500 and you manage to squeexe Oram and Styris into the list. Dont know if they do much to fill the gap left by the more illustrious five we listed above.

Its not much better with the bowlers.

I took a criteria of 100 Test wickets and an average of under 30 and you get only Cairns. You need to bring that average limit to 34 to be able to squeeze Vettori and Martin in the list. One can say that Zaheer gets his wickets at just under 34 and Harbhajan his at under 32 but then their batsmen average in the fifties, almost all of them that gives their bowlers much more leeway than the Kiwi scores do.

The overall strength of the Kiwi side has greatly diminished. Besides the five batsmen I mentioned you have lost Cairns a great all rounder and in Bond one of the finest fast bowlers to come from that country. The cupboard looks bare at least as far as experienced test cricketers are concerned and I can not recall a Test side that has really stayed close to the top without some solidity of experience.

So whats my point? It is this, that this Kiwi side is young, inexperienced and has some major gaps in the skill sets. These are not going to get filed in a great hurry. Its no one's fault. It happens all the time and NZL is more vulnerable since the pool is so small in a country with low population and so many sports vying for the young person's attention.

Its not even close to being an equal of this Indian side which is blessed with an experienced batting side, a couple os now maturing youngsters, a couple of experienced bowlers (Zaheer and Harbhajan) and a pool of young bowlers in addition. India are in a lucky phase of their cricketing cycle while New Zealand are not. Its not a time for either despair or to look at the wickets or another captain to improve things overnight although Vettori may be relieved to have the pressure off.

The gap between the two sides is HUGE and it wont be bridged soon but it can be in the years to come.

That makes a lot more sense, thought you'd done a "Oh they're all crappppppppp no matter what" for a sec. Yeah we lack experience defo, not talent though, but I've never agreed with the whole population/talent base idea (WI and Australia kick its ass) so we won't go down that road in this conversation, but that can't be used as an excuse for us.

This side definitely needs 30-50 tests under its belt for each player, and the current situation has been made even harder by the 25-30 age group in NZ failing (Sinclair, Vincent, Marshall, bunch of openers) or retiring (McMillan, Bond (over the age I know), Adams, Tuffey etc).

I certainly think many of those guys who retired would walk in atm and the failures were very disappointing, because we shouldn't have to be using the current top five this early in their careers.

Basically, my opinion on the team

Guptill-quality, but definitely too early (for tests) but we have no choice. Should come right
McIntosh-go away
Flynn-see Guptill. If things had gone to plan Sinclair or Fulton would be here.
Taylor-brokennnn recordddddd
Ryder-probably the only one who would get in if things had gone otherwise
Oram-deserves his spot
McCullum-yup would be in
Vettori-in
Franklin-in possibly, wouldn't have been rushed back as quickly. Only in this test is he back to bowling how he should
O'Brien-in
Martin-unsure (age)

Southee-no, not yet
Patel-Vettori

So it is unfortunate we aren't playing something like

Papps
Cumming
Sinclair
Fulton
McMillan/Marshall/Styris/Vincent
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Tuffey
Bond

But anyway I'm rambling because its almost dinner, but anyway, my original point is was I disagree our bowlers are crap, just raw, bowling on flat pitches, etc. They have saved us some dignity post-Fleming and have generally bowled very well on most pitches, however, since even the ODIs things have gone horribly wrong for them but imo it isn't time to start rubbishing them yet based on what they've done for the team previous to this.
O'Brien

 

[Krishna_j]

I'v been somewhat guilty of over-rating some of the bit players from NZ and copped flak - instead of the other way and have a soft corner for the underdog kiwis and the bit players who might have done better in a more professional setup

Dropping Jeetan Patel for an up and down trundler like Southee is inexcusible

I have admired the doggedness of certain players - Turner , Congdon , Hastings from the 70's - Coney , Wright , Howarth, Jones and Crowe from the 80's , Greatbatch , Fleming et al from the '90's even a certain Justin Vaughan (who dat ?) who stonewalled successfully for long periods against windies in '96 .

But this present Kiwi will really struggle to hold their own against Indian or Australian provincial states and I state again - Bangladesh will fancy their chances in a return series

Cupboard really looks bare .

 

[Flem274*]

I'v been somewhat guilty of over-rating some of the bit players from NZ and copped flak - instead of the other way and have a soft corner for the underdog kiwis and the bit players who might have done better in a more professional setup

Dropping Jeetan Patel for an up and down trundler like Southee is inexcusible

I have admired the doggedness of certain players - Turner , Congdon , Hastings from the 70's - Coney , Wright , Howarth, Jones and Crowe from the 80's , Greatbatch , Fleming et al from the '90's even a certain Justin Vaughan (who dat ?) who stonewalled successfully for long periods against windies in '96 .

But this present Kiwi will really struggle to hold their own against Indian or Australian provincial states and I state again - Bangladesh will fancy their chances in a return series

Cupboard really looks bare .

No, they wouldn't.

 

[Smudge]

Indeed. If they couldn't beat us with their battery of left-arm spinners on the dustbowls of Dhaka and Chittagong, they can't beat us in NZ. Just like they couldn't beat us a bit over a year ago during the series here.

And I'm sure the Black Caps will be gutted to hear Krishna doesn't respect them as much as he respects Bevan Congdon. That's a real sleep-stealer.

 

[Krishna_j]

Well - your Men in Black are a lot more potent than the Men in white and present lot could learn a tip or two from them

if they hav'nt lost sleep over being paired with the minnows at number 8 - they can enjoy the status quo and possibly bring back Bracewell as coach as well

 

[oitoitoi]

John Bracewell is what happened.

I don't care what anyone else thinks. Bracewell has been almost the single reason why many of our players retired early and close together and why are batting and all-round mental fortitude has gone to ****.

The man is the anti-christ to NZC. Justin Vaughan must also take a little blame for selling Bond up the river.

AWTA. He was the worst coach I've ever seen, I mean Moores was **** but at least he wasn't destructive. NZ should try and get Tom Moody, I know he doesn't want to leave Perth but NZ isn't such a huge change for him and he could be tempted if they throw a bit of cash at him. Moody did absolute wonders with Sri Lanka and more importantly he left a legacy that's still in place now.

 

[Athlai]

Moles seems okay, though I'm not a fan of some of his ideas for the ODI team. How we're supposed to graft our way to 170//2or3 and then launch in the final 10.

 

[Pratters]

Nothing wrong with Flynn or Guptill, hardly enough chances to really criticize them now.

I wish Jeets was playing. Southee has been tripe.

Jeets should mostly play when NZ field a XI except for the least supporting of wickets. If he doesn't get wickets, he ties one end up.

 

[Pratters]

Gambhir on 151!

What a star player he is. Awesome to see him in such great form.

Gambhir is a great student of the game. He has his own limitations in strokeplay but he knows how to play within his limitations. He is a player who is always improving his game.

 

[irfan]

Gambhir is a great student of the game. He has his own limitations in strokeplay but he knows how to play within his limitations. He is a player who is always improving his game.

Averaging 70odd since his recall in 07. Phenomenal stuff - he's India's Justin Langer and could possibly be better than him by the time he's done.

 

[Athlai]

Jeets should mostly play when NZ field a XI except for the least supporting of wickets. If he doesn't get wickets, he ties one end up.

Haha mate you know what the irony is?

He tends to only play on the least supportive of wickets.

 

[Arjun]

Tell me more about this incident:

Taken from an article from Times of India
4 Apr 2009, 0454 hrs IST, Bobilli Vijay Kumar, TNN

For the third Test, however, it turned out to be a hard, brown pitch. NZ surprisingly chose to bowl first on this: apparently, it doesn’t want to bat on the last day when spinners call the shots. So why was Jeetan Patel, a local hero and an attacking spinner, dropped again.

"I have no clue," snapped the offie, when a supporter asked him. He clearly looked angry. Just then a team member joined him near the boundary and quipped: "You might want to cool down, mate." "No", barked back Jeetan. "I might want to quit," he said. He has, incidentally, played only seven Test matches since his debut in 2006. Worse, he has been dropped as many as five times, including four just this summer. He has a reason to be angry.

 

[Shri]

Tell me more about this incident:

He would play well under Badrinath for TN.