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***Official*** English Football Season 2020-21

Uppercut

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All we can hope for is that its implementation is improved. It's clearly not going anywhere.
What would the process be for removing it? Would it be scrapped if, for example, a majority of PL clubs voted for it?

I kinda refuse to give up on this. Before it came in I felt like I was in a pretty small minority in opposing it and I really don't think I am any more.
 

JOJOXI

International Captain
I think it's a good idea badly implemented. There's so much about it that just doesn't make sense.

Two really glaring things that stand out - aside from the well documented pile of ****e that offsides and handballs have become - is that for some reason it's not used to overturn corners/goal kicks being given incorrectly, plus the way that offside is only reviewed if a goal is scored.

The offside thing is really stupid. If I receive the ball in an offside position and the linesman doesn't give it, if I go on to score or be fouled in the penalty box then it'll be reviewed. If I have a shot that gets saved by the goalie then it's a corner. Which could very well lead to a goal anyway.
In fairness one of the primary reasons I heard for opposing it prior to its implementation was the delays it would cause - looking at each corner/goalkick would only cause further delays and I don't think would improve people's perception of VAR in any way. Additionally, if you rule on this it then puts pressure to rule on throw-ins and this isn't just a bog-standard slippery slope argument as we have seen some already complain it didn't intervene in Utd's first goal v West Ham - and in my view at least it wasn't obvious the ball went out of play (in real-time or replays) and all the evidence I saw minutes and hours after came from people using lines they criticise VAR for using all the time.

I have to say I'm not as against the offsides as most which will be an unpopular position. A few of them I think are a very bad look but on the whole I prefer how it is now then say all your body has to be offside which would still lead to microscopic lines but just shift the balance further into the attackers favour.

Yeah, agree, in the end though as Uppercut says Football authorities predictably not really doing this. Tight offsides should get a couple of real-time looks from Var, if not obvious goal stands,

You'll get inconsistencies that people will be quick to point out - obvious isn't all that objective a term especially if defender is on the near side and attacker on the far side - 2 people can look and come to very different conclusions. Also for all the criticism of re-reffing the game in many ways does this not go further - instead of reaching the conclusion that its the wrong call (rightly or wrongly) so we will go against the assistant refs original call if I've understood you correctly in cases where a goal has been disallowed you go its too tight for us to call it definitively so we are going to overturn the assistant refs decision. If this is about right decisions without getting out thin lines and the like personally I think it makes sense to stick with the assistant refs decision for tight calls otherwise VAR from an offside perspective isn't about right calls or not disrupting the flow of the game but aiding attackers more and encouraging deeper defensive lines.
 

JOJOXI

International Captain
Very possibly the 'compromise' will be margin of error system in Holland where 5cm lines are used and if both lines touch it stays with the on-field call. This doesn't get rid of microscopic calls though, you'll still get where the shoulder ends and 'hand' begins issues and you'll still get issues of people bringing up other calls if a call goes against them. You could still get an issue of a player being 9cm onside but the goal disallowed after review because the linesman flagged whilst a goal 9cm offside is allowed.

Given VAR's reported that margin of error could be as big as 38.8cm (I think this assumes players running in opposite direction and looking at top-speeds of fastest players as well as the key moment in offside call being right between frames) this doesn't totally negate the 'Why are they being so precise with the offside/onside but not with the frame' complaint. It would mean you don't get the 'armpit' offsides and would mean most noteworthy offside calls side with the assistant ref though
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Very possibly the 'compromise' will be margin of error system in Holland where 5cm lines are used and if both lines touch it stays with the on-field call. This doesn't get rid of microscopic calls though, you'll still get where the shoulder ends and 'hand' begins issues and you'll still get issues of people bringing up other calls if a call goes against them. You could still get an issue of a player being 9cm onside but the goal disallowed after review because the linesman flagged whilst a goal 9cm offside is allowed.

Given VAR's reported that margin of error could be as big as 38.8cm (I think this assumes players running in opposite direction and looking at top-speeds of fastest players as well as the key moment in offside call being right between frames) this doesn't totally negate the 'Why are they being so precise with the offside/onside but not with the frame' complaint. It would mean you don't get the 'armpit' offsides and would mean most noteworthy offside calls side with the assistant ref though
I'm fine with this. If a player's head is leaning offside then I'm fine with VAR not stepping in to correct that. I think the margin of error is too great that we need an 'umpires call' style grey area.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
It’s a farce at the moment. No technology can even measure precisely the moment the ball connects with the foot of the player making the pass.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Got tickets for Tuesday night. Puts me on 50/50 for Boxing Day but I'll take any game that comes my way at the minute so whatever will be will be.
 

JOJOXI

International Captain
I'm fine with this. If a player's head is leaning offside then I'm fine with VAR not stepping in to correct that. I think the margin of error is too great that we need an 'umpires call' style grey area.
Likewise I'm fine with it but on the whole I'm not as outraged by the current system as most are, my fear is whilst its probably better then what is here currently it isn't a magic bullet as many of the critiques of VAR would still remain. What do you mean by your 2nd sentence, you wouldn't have an umpires call? If not what system would you have
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Yeah I still don't really hate VAR tbh

People have talked about things (e.g. foreigners, diving, softness, technology) "ruining the game" for as long as I can remember

And yet, so far as I can see the game remains unruined
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Likewise I'm fine with it but on the whole I'm not as outraged by the current system as most are, my fear is whilst its probably better then what is here currently it isn't a magic bullet as many of the critiques of VAR would still remain. What do you mean by your 2nd sentence, you wouldn't have an umpires call? If not what system would you have
I think there needs to be a grey area where VAR doesn't intervene if it's too close to call.
 

Uppercut

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Yeah I still don't really hate VAR tbh

People have talked about things (e.g. foreigners, diving, softness, technology) "ruining the game" for as long as I can remember

And yet, so far as I can see the game remains unruined
Yeah it's just subjective. My dad used to be an obsessive football fan but, although he still follows the results closely, he doesn't watch it any more. Finds it very slow and sanitised. I didn't mind the technical/tactical turn at all. There were some great seasons where everyone was trying to implement stuff and you got a bunch of 5-3s and 8-2s. But it doesn't mean my dad was wrong, it's just a preference. When you make big changes to a sport, not everyone will like those changes, and this time I'm one of the people that really doesn't like them.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Yeah it's just subjective. My dad used to be an obsessive football fan but, although he still follows the results closely, he doesn't watch it any more. Finds it very slow and sanitised. I didn't mind the technical/tactical turn at all. There were some great seasons where everyone was trying to implement stuff and you got a bunch of 5-3s and 8-2s. But it doesn't mean my dad was wrong, it's just a preference. When you make big changes to a sport, not everyone will like those changes, and this time I'm one of the people that really doesn't like them.
Yeah that's totally fair enough. Don't begrudge you that at all. I don't think a lot of the people making the "ruined" comments are as nunaced as you though. My impression is that many see it as an objective rather than subjective issue. I also sense that many haven't thought about it as much as you have either, and object to it purely because it is different and not what they are used to.
 

Pothas

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
There are plenty of people that wanted it before and now don't like it though.

For me it certainly does not ruin football but it does make it worse, I really struggle to see how football is a better sport to watch with VAR. Now for some people it might be worth it for better decisions but that is really not a trade off that I would ever welcome, even if it was almost perfect.
 

JOJOXI

International Captain
I think there needs to be a grey area where VAR doesn't intervene if it's too close to call.
Ah so effectively what this system would involve then with umpires call with effectively a 10cm margin of error. Apologies I thought you meant the margin of error was too big to warrant an umpires call.

Yeah that's totally fair enough. Don't begrudge you that at all. I don't think a lot of the people making the "ruined" comments are as nunaced as you though. My impression is that many see it as an objective rather than subjective issue. I also sense that many haven't thought about it as much as you have either, and object to it purely because it is different and not what they are used to.
Agree, I do think VAR at times hasn't helped itself but I do also think at times people oppose VAR because they've decided to oppose it and so VAR will never win them over. That does sometimes frustrate me - not so much the opposition to VAR - if you are against non-instant technology in the sport no issues there or if its a stance of VAR is bad because it stops the flow of play fine, its more the attacking VAR from every angle possible even if the criticisms contradict each other. One thing you cannot say which was a criticism before its introduction is it hasn't removed talking points :laugh:
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
In fairness, offside is one of the things I probably said in the past would be worth using tech for. I stand by it, just go with the as is if it's marginal.

Anything that needs more than a couple of views is going to be an opinion. This is where football is fundamentally different to cricket.

Also, killing the goal feeling is criminal and for that everyone involved should be executed
 

JOJOXI

International Captain
Presumably whilst this may limit the delays somewhat it would still have to be decided what frame shows the ball has definitively been played and so I think as soon as you use VAR for offsides you are going to kill that goal feeling - the wait might be shorter but a significantly longer wait then simply looking at the assistant as to whether they've flagged or not. I don't think 'marginal' is all that objective either and in a sport where most cry out for consistency this isn't going to help with it especially when the camera angles aren't always straight.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
The offside law was invented by a toffee nosed bank clerk in the 1860’s to prevent the fat butcher hanging around the goal mouth. It’s been gradually refined over the years and eventually it’ll be refined so that any part of the body being onside will be legal. It won’t stop the slide rules coming out, but it’ll be quicker and easier than the rubbish we’ve got now.
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I actually feel the delays are wholly the worse problem, football in the Prem is almost purely an Entertainment for me, I have no dog in the race. Honestly feel the 30 seconds and if you can't decide remains with Ref's call, would stop almost all my ire with it.

Hate how it kills the flow of the game, as TBH that flow is probably one of the main reasons it's the most popular sport in the World, by far.

As for killing the joy of the goal, being a miserablist bastard I almost always look at the linesman and ref before I go utterly mental, remember going mental for a couple of Sol Campbell goals:censored:
 

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