*Official* English Football Season 2010-11

[Cevno]

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Manchester City have now become the highest net spenders in the history of the premier league in the transfer market after signing Kolarov ,and still are to win a trophy.

 

[Ikki]

You play 15 games so I think you have to contribute a bit more than here and there. We got through by tooth and nail TBH. People think the final was the only comeback but even in the group stages we needed a miracle. Olympiacos had scored 1 and we needed 3 in the second half. We fought back and got two, then Gerrard did this with a few minutes left : YouTube - Gerrard v Olympiacos.

We breezed past Leverkusen but Juventus, Chelsea and then Milan were all incredibly tight contests. Other guys like Carra, Hyppia, Garcia and to a lesser extent Alonso were very responsible but I really think with anyone other than Gerrard there is no way we would have won that tournament. No chance. Whether it was a late tackle or a late goal it was him that kept us in it.

If you want to compare the type of midfielder Gerrard was in his prime,Scholes would be a more valid comparison then Keane and Viera.
The attacking of the box to box midfielders vs the defensive box to box midfielders.

Maybe but I think Scholes is really less a box-to-box midfielder in the way the others covered ground. The thing is that Scholes started his career from high up the pitch and then slowly got to the middle whereas Gerrard started off much more deeper like Keane but was too good to merely play there and has been pushed further up in his career. I think because Gerrard is the more all-round CM of them all he is like them and unlike them simultaneously. I'm not frontin', I'm a Gerrard fanboy but I think he truly is the most complete player that I have ever seen. Anyway, we've really hijacked the thread.

 

[L Trumper]

Depends how high you set the bar. But I can say with confidence that Henry will thought of much, much more highly in twenty years than Gerd Muller is now. Whether you agree with their assessment or not, there's a decent chunk of people my age and younger who think Henry is the best player they've ever seen.

By that time muller will be thought of as the game's greatest striker. The reason muller is not rated mostly because beckenbauer, cruyff are seen as the legends of that time, back then goal scoring is not as over rated as now.. But now it is seen as be all end all and as the time goes by muller will be remembered as game's greats while henry won't. He'll probably end up being club legend but not as a truly great player.

 

[Ikki]

Question to the neutrals: should Liverpool sell Torres?

Personally, I love the guy, but he is too injury-prone and 70 mill is a steal IMO. Other 'Pool fans think it blasphemous but I think we can't afford for Torres to have another injury-plagued season and two world class players can be bought with that kind of sum.

 

[Cevno]

Question to the neutrals: should Liverpool sell Torres?

Personally, I love the guy, but he is too injury-prone and 70 mill is a steal IMO. Other 'Pool fans think it blasphemous but I think we can't afford for Torres to have another injury-plagued season and two world class players can be bought with that kind of sum.

If they can spend the money brought in then yes.

But i Doubt the americans will allow hodgson to spend all the money.

 

[Ikki]

By that time muller will be thought of as the game's greatest striker. The reason muller is not rated mostly because beckenbauer, cruyff are seen as the legends of that time, back then goal scoring is not as over rated as now.. But now it is seen as be all end all and as the time goes by muller will be remembered as game's greats while henry won't. He'll probably end up being club legend but not as a truly great player.

I think the comparison of the two is just wrong anyway. I am not fully familiar with Muller but from what I gather he was the ultimate fox in the box and put away everything. Henry is just so so much more than that.

 

[L Trumper]

It seems you are overrating gerrard a bit there ikki..

On henry, Bergkamp debate on their peak henry may be better player. But for anyone who saw bergkamp's exquisite ball controlling abiltiy, and the way he depended on technical, tactical nuances of games rather than physical (not saying he is physically bad or anything) and almost as good in 2004 as he is in 95-96i'd rate dennis higher. Then again I'm sucker for all the players who play in between lines, the likes of cantona, zola, dennis who lit up prem during early to late 90s.

 

[L Trumper]

I think the comparison of the two is just wrong anyway. I am not fully familiar with Muller but from what I gather he was the ultimate fox in the box and put away everything. Henry is just so so much more than that.

Well muller is so much more than that too. The point is muller is rated highly now than 15 years ago. Because even if he is fox in the box 400 league goals in 430 games is absurd by any stretch of imagination and he did not play in an era where they score 4 and 5 every game.

The more important thing is putting away everything, back then it is not as highly rated as now.

 

[Ikki]

I've only seen Muller in terms of highlights so I can't really elaborate but with Henry you have him doing ridiculous things/making absurd plays. The guy is one of the most technically brilliant forwards of all time and also had the build of an Olympic runner. Someone like RvN played in Henry's generation and also scored a ridiculous amount of goals but I don't think he'll be remembered like Henry will. Whilst you probably have a point in that people care more for statistics (probably are more aware of them) I think Henry still transcends that.

 

[L Trumper]

The things that counter against henry is he never really did it at int'l level and is not as good in continental competetions as he is in EPL.. Great for arguably 5 seasons without any major injury one would except him to do it more and defenitely on big stages. He'll be remebered as club legend, probably greatest arsenal player ever, but not as one of game's truely great player.

 

[cpr]

He also scored 20+ on the wing and very few players manage that. I probably do rate him much higher than you because for me there has been no more complete player than Gerrard in at least the last two decades. No one has had the physical attributes as well as technical, with the ability to play multiple positions to a very high standard. Gerrard in the last few years has certainly not played with all those qualities at once because, as I alluded to earlier, box-to-box midfielders are essentially dead. The Gerrard that did it all existed from about 00-06.

I disagree with you naming Vieira ahead of Gerrard for simply the reason that Vieira whilst maybe better in defence the balance is better with Gerrard. Neither Vieira nor Keane would ever carry a side like Gerrard did with Liverpool in 05. That's why he is my #1 name on the sheet. Because if I do not know who else I am going to get in 'my' side, I at least have one player who can play so many positions to a very high standard and who can play DM yet also play up front and score 20 a season if need be. You can't say that with the other two.

This is one of my favourite videos of Gerrard. It's not really a highlight reel per se as it's quite random (it's not really the "best" of him) and it's quite old, but it shows Gerrard towards probably his peak with respect to the box-to-box midfield position:

Gerrard on Vimeo

Gerrard played as much on the wing as Ronaldo did, until he just gave up the pretence and played how he ****ing wanted.

Downside to your argument is Gerrard carrying the team, doing all in midfield.... Its a shame that there was so much dross about him, seeing him excel in one position would've been fantastic. Vieria and Keane could carry a team when needed (as Cevno said, Juve 99 a prime example), but most of the time they commanded a team, and were key to making them bloody successful. That's worth far more than covering as much grass as you can in the middle

Vieira and Keane were better midfield engines. Scholes a better attacking option from the middle. If you were building a Prem all time squad, then yes, Gerrards a must, possibly one of the first picks, but an XI, the roles he plays, others have mastered better.

Thats why its a shame Liverpool have banded him around the park a bit, letting him dominate one position, well, my argument would be blown because he'd probably take the title.


As for Torres, if you can find a striker to bring in, do it. His fitness is now a major worry, and with Gerrard and Cole supplying, anyone should be able to bang in 15-20.... Getting 2 good strikers with the money would make your team very scary this year (though still think your weak at the back)

 

[Scaly piscine]

I've only seen Muller in terms of highlights so I can't really elaborate but with Henry you have him doing ridiculous things/making absurd plays. The guy is one of the most technically brilliant forwards of all time and also had the build of an Olympic runner. Someone like RvN played in Henry's generation and also scored a ridiculous amount of goals but I don't think he'll be remembered like Henry will. Whilst you probably have a point in that people care more for statistics (probably are more aware of them) I think Henry still transcends that.

Technically brilliant my arse.

If he has such a brilliant all-round game why is he so ordinary without his pace? Because he's not that good technically. He's beyond atrocious in the air (which usually gets blatantly ignored for some reason). He's composed on the ball but nothing special. He's a weak finisher. Chief Cheateur's game was heavily reliant on his pace.

Players who genuinely have quality aside from their pace have gone on and been good players well into their 30s. Chief Cheateur wasn't even getting a go from the bench most of the time.

 

[Furball]

Neither Vieira nor Keane would ever carry a side like Gerrard did with Liverpool in 05.

Go and watch Manchester United v Juventus in the 2nd leg of the 1999 European Cup semi final then come back here and try to make that claim with a straight face.

 

[Furball]

He's beyond atrocious in the air (which usually gets blatantly ignored for some reason).

Here's a clue: the game Thierry Henry is famous for playing is football.

 

[cpr]

Go and watch Manchester United v Juventus in the 2nd leg of the 1999 European Cup semi final then come back here and try to make that claim with a straight face.

3rd person to mention that game funnily enough. Suppose I shouldn't be surprised it's stuck in the memory of so many people.

 

[Pothas]

Why do people still argue with Scaly about Henry, seriously?

 

[roseboy64]

Conversation with the average gooner

 

[vcs]

Gerrard played as much on the wing as Ronaldo did, until he just gave up the pretence and played how he ****ing wanted.

Downside to your argument is Gerrard carrying the team, doing all in midfield.... Its a shame that there was so much dross about him, seeing him excel in one position would've been fantastic. Vieria and Keane could carry a team when needed (as Cevno said, Juve 99 a prime example), but most of the time they commanded a team, and were key to making them bloody successful. That's worth far more than covering as much grass as you can in the middle

Vieira and Keane were better midfield engines. Scholes a better attacking option from the middle. If you were building a Prem all time squad, then yes, Gerrards a must, possibly one of the first picks, but an XI, the roles he plays, others have mastered better.

Thats why its a shame Liverpool have banded him around the park a bit, letting him dominate one position, well, my argument would be blown because he'd probably take the title.

Pretty much agree with all that. Gerrard can do a lot of things to a very high level, but if I was selecting an all-time Premiership XI, would I want someone who can fill in at RB/DM/LW etc. in an emergency? Or would I pick someone who has mastered all the aspects of his role so as to enable his team to dominate consistently? Definitely the latter. You could say Gerrard's development path was impacted by the paucity of talent at Liverpool but I can't buy that fully.

Another player who comes to mind when I think of Gerrard is Bastian Schweinsteiger. He's pretty similar attributes-wise to Gerrard, a winger converted to a midfielder, strong, pacy with a similar built. Why has he produced more at international level than Gerrard has ever done in 6 or so years? It's not because he plays with superior colleagues, it's because he is disciplined enough to understand what the team requires from him in that role.

 

[vcs]

Liverpool should do everything they can to keep Torres IMO, he has been absolutely brilliant for them and an asset to the league. Barca don't need him anyway and he would never go to Madrid. Can't see him moving within the English clubs.

 

[Ikki]

Gerrard played as much on the wing as Ronaldo did, until he just gave up the pretence and played how he ****ing wanted.

Any winger scoring 20+ goals has to do more than just stay out wide. For a player to do it is nonetheless impressive.

Downside to your argument is Gerrard carrying the team, doing all in midfield.... Its a shame that there was so much dross about him, seeing him excel in one position would've been fantastic. Vieria and Keane could carry a team when needed (as Cevno said, Juve 99 a prime example), but most of the time they commanded a team, and were key to making them bloody successful. That's worth far more than covering as much grass as you can in the middle

Vieira and Keane were better midfield engines. Scholes a better attacking option from the middle. If you were building a Prem all time squad, then yes, Gerrards a must, possibly one of the first picks, but an XI, the roles he plays, others have mastered better.

Agree to disagree. He can do what Vieira and Keane did + more. That's my argument. They may be better disciplined positionally and better defensively, but not enough to make the difference for just how much better Gerrard is going forward. Ironically, if I were building an XI I wouldn't have Vieira AND Keane in the team both as I am essentially wasting a position.

Thats why its a shame Liverpool have banded him around the park a bit, letting him dominate one position, well, my argument would be blown because he'd probably take the title.

I disagree. The reason he has been banded about is because the squad lacked players or it brought better balance to the side. For example, the year he was put out right it was either between him, Nunez or Cisse (who was tried by Rafa out wide). In the middle we were covered with Sissoko, Alonso and Hamann. In order to have the best team possible he had to go wide, but that's still ok since he had a fantastic season and was voted PFA player of the year.

Once we got Masch we put him further up and essentially built the team around him. We could have had him in the middle but someone would have had to play behind Torres, and we would have had to bench either Masch or Alonso. Few in the world could score 20+ and have as many assists as Gerrard in that position which is why it made sense to keep him up the pitch. As an aside, I thought that was what Keane was brought for - so that Gerrard could play in the middle again, but that was a bit of a train-wreck.

As for Torres, if you can find a striker to bring in, do it. His fitness is now a major worry, and with Gerrard and Cole supplying, anyone should be able to bang in 15-20.... Getting 2 good strikers with the money would make your team very scary this year (though still think your weak at the back)

I agree, but as Cevno pointed out it's all about whether we get to spend that money.

Go and watch Manchester United v Juventus in the 2nd leg of the 1999 European Cup semi final then come back here and try to make that claim with a straight face.

Roy was fantastic in that match but arguing that he carried United to that title is silliness.

Another player who comes to mind when I think of Gerrard is Bastian Schweinsteiger. He's pretty similar attributes-wise to Gerrard, a winger converted to a midfielder, strong, pacy with a similar built. Why has he produced more at international level than Gerrard has ever done in 6 or so years? It's not because he plays with superior colleagues, it's because he is disciplined enough to understand what the team requires from him in that role.

Disagree that they're similar but one reason might be is that the position he plays for his club is actually the same that he plays in the German national team. He was converted by Gaal, not Loew.