*Official* English Football Season 2010-11

[vcs]

I tend to put great CM's into two moulds : the Xavi/Scholes/Riquelme type that dictates games with their passing and the Essien/Keane/Vieira type that keeps their passing simple but dominate with their power and mobility. Ideally, you'd want to have a decent mix of both qualities to be truly great (Alonso/Pirlo are a cut below Xavi/Scholes because they lack their mobility). Gerrard could have been an Essien-type if you look at his skill-set (powerful running, tackling, ball-striking) but he goes for the over-ambitious option way too often for my liking. Needs to keep it simple and respect possession far more than he actually does for a CM.

 

[duffer]

Stevie could never single handedly smother an opposition's attack like Paddy who could never carry his team's attack the way I've seen Gerrard do. Both incredible footballers though.

 

[Ikki]

Who was better than him between, say, 97 and the early 00s?

Uppercut's aforementioned midfield two are probably the only ones that warrant a mention here. I'm probably criminally forgetting someone though.

Are you saying that Bergkamp was the best player in the world at that time or in Arsenal?

Rivaldo, Ronaldo and Zidane? Probably in the echelon under them. Maybe I should rephrase and say that he was probably never realistically in the running for the best player in the world whereas Henry, IMO at least, was.

 

[duffer]

Bergkamp was our best player in 97/98 but once Henry settled in it wasn't a contest. Dennis produced genuine moments of genius a couple/few times a season but Thierry went through periods where he'd score, set up or do both every time he went out onto the field. Comfortably the best attacking player I've seen for us.

 

[Ikki]

I tend to put great CM's into two moulds : the Xavi/Scholes/Riquelme type that dictates games with their passing and the Essien/Keane/Vieira type that keeps their passing simple but dominate with their power and mobility. Ideally, you'd want to have a decent mix of both qualities to be truly great (Alonso/Pirlo are a cut below Xavi/Scholes because they lack their mobility). Gerrard could have been an Essien-type if you look at his skill-set (powerful running, tackling, ball-striking) but he goes for the over-ambitious option way too often for my liking. Needs to keep it simple and respect possession far more than he actually does for a CM.

As much as I like Essien, Gerrard is far more than what Essien could hope to be. Call me a 'Pool fan and biased, but Gerrard doesn't get the respect he deserves simply because he hasn't won the EPL title.

Stevie could never single handedly smother an opposition's attack like Paddy who could never carry his team's attack the way I've seen Gerrard do. Both incredible footballers though.

I guess 'never' is a bit harsh. I think Vieira was more disciplined than Gerrard in defence and Gerrard more technically gifted to attack but I've seen them both have great games where they were an influence in the opposite respects. Some of my fav moments from Paddy is seeing him one-two his way into the box and slot it in goal and some of my fav Gerrard moments are seeing him bust a gut and track a man 30 yards and deny a sure-fire goal opportunity.

I don't agree. Gerrard might have been more influential to Liverpool than those two to their clubs (debatable), but as midfielders I'd take Keane and Vieira everytime over Gerrard. Maybe I didn't watch enough of Gerrard before Benitez but I think he takes the over-ambitious option far too often to be a truly great CM.

Gerrard had very much made his name pre-Benitez already and was compared to those two even pre-Istanbul. You'd think since then he'd have doubled his repute. I also think this "Hollywood ball Gerrard" thing gets overplayed a lot. I've looked at the stats and Gerrard's passing stats mirror Cesc's and Lampard's over the years. I think what gives that impression is that Gerrard, for most of his career, hasn't been surrounded by the kind of teammates he'd be able to trust and for that often has tried to force something to happen with 40-yard pass here and there.

http://abc.gov.au/news/stories/2004/05/17/1109749.htm

Fergie rates Gerrard the most influential player in England
Posted Mon May 17, 2004 11:46am AEST
Updated Mon May 17, 2004 12:32pm AEST

Manchester United manager Sir Alex Ferguson has told the UK's Sunday Times that he sees Liverpool ace Steven Gerrard as the natural successor to his midfield general Roy Keane.

"If you were looking for the player you would replace Keane with, it's Gerrard, without question," Ferguson was quoted as saying. "He has become the most influential player in England, bar none.

"To me, Gerrard is Keane; he is now where Keane was when Roy came to us in 1994. I've watched him quite a lot, and everywhere the ball is, he seems to be there.

"He's got that unbelievable engine, desire, determination. Anyone would take Gerrard."

Ferguson conceded that bringing Gerrard to Old Trafford would be a "complicated" transfer, but said he would opt for him over Arsenal captain and midfielder Patrick Vieira.

"Not that Vieira lacks anything, but I think that Gerrard does more for his team than Vieira does.

"Vieira has done that job for Arsenal for two or three years. But you can see Gerrard rising and rising."

Last month reports suggested United were willing to launch an audacious 20 million pound bid ($A51 million) for Gerrard.

That prompted the following colourful "hands off" warning from Ferguson's opposite number at Anfield.

"You would have to cut off both my arms before I let go of him because I would have them both wrapped around him," Gerard Houllier said.

 

[Nate]

Very cool Jack Mac.

 

[vcs]

Well, I do think you're slightly biased here because Gerrard, for all his talent, just hasn't been disciplined enough in my opinion to consistently dominate top sides from that area of the pitch. While his driving forward and individual brilliance has won/rescued many games for Liverpool, I'd take someone who ensures me midfield dominance week in, week out, over that. Yeah, he hasn't been surrounded by the greatest players at Liverpool, but IMO, Liverpool were consistently dominating midfields and had their best season in 08-09 when Benitez played him off Torres and let Alonso and Mascherano run things.

His performances with England, where he has been surrounded by plenty of talent (not enough talent to win a major competition but certainly better than their performances indicate), also back me up.

 

[GIMH]

Are you saying that Bergkamp was the best player in the world at that time or in Arsenal?

Rivaldo, Ronaldo and Zidane? Probably in the echelon under them. Maybe I should rephrase and say that he was probably never realistically in the running for the best player in the world whereas Henry, IMO at least, was.

In the Prem, sorry

 

[vcs]

And Lampard isn't the answer either. I get that exceptional midfielders like Vieira/Xavi are hard to come by, but you look at a player like Fletcher who does a fine job at United keeping things simple, Flamini who did the same for Arsenal a couple of seasons back and there's no reason why England couldn't set up their midfield in a similar fashion to what Germany did in this tournament. Schweinsteiger/Khedira aren't that much better, talent-wise to what England have. I think it's a question of having the right discipline.

 

[duffer]

Khedira isn't that skilful but he reads the game at an elite level.

 

[Jarquis]

Yeah, Khedira's awareness, positioning and vision in the World Cup was awesome. 1 year on his contract? Wenger!!!

 

[Ikki]

Well, I do think you're slightly biased here because Gerrard, for all his talent, just hasn't been disciplined enough in my opinion to consistently dominate top sides from that area of the pitch. Where his driving forward and individual brilliance has won/rescued many games for Liverpool, I'd take a someone who ensures me midfield dominance week in, week out, over that. Yeah, he hasn't been surrounded by the greatest players at Liverpool, but IMO, Liverpool were consistently dominating midfields and had their best season in 08-09 when Benitez played him off Torres and let Alonso and Mascherano run things.

His performances with England, where he has been surrounded by plenty of talent (not enough talent to win a major competition but certainly better than their performances indicate), also back me up.

I think you're reading the fact that Gerrard saves Liverpool's bacon as some sort of indiscipline between them playing consistently when, really, it's just Gerrard bailing out an inferior team time and time again. You're seeing that as a deficiency in Gerrard when it's really his team. The guy has won everything bar the league, and even then has come runner-up twice. I don't think consistency has been an issue at all. Especially in the big games. I don't think there is a bigger big-game player (with the exception of possibly Zidane) in the last 20 years. He's scored in every kind of final, been man of the match in many too and two of them will go down in history as possibly the greatest finals in those respective competitions (CL, FA) precisely because of his herculean effort in winning them for Liverpool, and that's not even counting the classic Alaves final.

I'd agree in that last few years we had a team good enough to win and we were more consistent but it hit peak in 08-09. And even then Torres missed much of the season and Gerrard once again carried the team.

Even in his performances for England are tainted as he has been played out of position for almost all of his caps frankly. Either holding behind Lampard, on the right, on the left, but rarely in his most preferred position - and yet he has been the equal top goalscorer for England in the last two world cups...go figure. The Gerrard that plays for Liverpool won't come to the fore unless he is played in his best position and until the responsibility of play goes through him. In fact, that's probably a weakness of Gerrard in that he is probably not the kind of player you want to play a bit-part because it takes most of his strengths away.

In the Prem, sorry

Would agree then.

 

[GIMH]

Ikki, even as someone who has to endure a lot of 'it's our year blablabla Stevie G on the back of my shirt but I don't even watch the game when it's on and I'm in the pub' sort of hype that irritates me, you know I agree with you on Gerrard and his ability & record. However you're stretching things by mentioning him being equal top scorer for us in the last World Cup, with his amazing tally of one!

 

[Ikki]

Yes, but that's the point. He's not the focal point of the team as he probably deserved to be yet he is outshining others he is playing out of his position for. I don't wish to make it appear like I think it's a big thing to be top scorer for England; because England have been largely a disappointing side; just the fact that whatever you wish to put on him with regards to England...he's still one of the better players in that side and yet he is always talked of as "crap".

 

[vcs]

For me it comes down to a simple question, would you back a team with Gerrard in CM to consistently dominate possession/territory against the best sides? I don't think so. If you want quick counter-attacking, occasional long-range strikes and bursts of individual brilliance, he's your man... but I'd be reluctant to build a team around those traits.

 

[GIMH]

I've always thoguht he got a raw deal when people talk about his international career. Someone posted a link to a decent article on football365 that talked about it actually. He's done more for England than people recognise, it's just that he doesn't do the same as he does for Liverpool....because he plays in a different position.

I didn't think he had a great WC but he came out of it relatively unscathed compared to the rest and he's one of the older players that I would keep on board, probably as skipper (pending Ferdinand's injuries).

 

[Jarquis]

Thought he was pretty turd during the World Cup, am sick to death of seeing him wide left though. Doesn't work for so many reasons.

 

[Jarquis]

Oh and guess how many current Arsenal contracted players have a PL medal?

 

[duffer]

Need Scaly's input here tbh.

 

[Jarquis]

Another story in Italy suggests that Inter president Massimo Moratti has agreed in principle to sell Mario Balotelli to Citeh for €35m. He would fit in perfectly with scaly's 'CDM' tag, turns up to training when Mario Balotelli feels like it (ie late, and is sure as hell never early) and is a heads case. In the Champions League semi final first leg, guys like Cambiasso and Eto'o were constantly going up to Balotelli and telling him to calm down as he was losing the plot and not doing what Mourinho asked him to do.

Football Italia - the Italian football website for English-speaking football fans

That's not all though.
Manchester City willing to break transfer record for Fernando Torres | Football | The Guardian

How are they going to get their squad down to 25?