*Official* English Football Season 2010-11

[Furball]

There is no way that Steven Gerrard is 'not fit to clean Paul Scholes's boots'. Just no way in a million years.

I wouldn't go that far, but Scholes IMO is in a different class to Gerrard.

For Gerrard dragging Liverpool to 4th in 03/04, Scholes dragged Manchester United to the title in 02/03. Was magnificent in the title run in.

 

[GIMH]

I'd have them about equal

 

[Woodster]

United were better. We were wasteful. Silva was bad, Tevez was selfish (no shock there) and I thought Dzeko was good but his first touch was a little lacking. Rooney and Nani's diving was insane and disgusting, but both scored superb goals. Fair play.

My heart hurts.

Wouldn't agree with much of that mate. Thought Silva made us tick, especially in the first half where he managed to find plenty of space, Tevez grew into the game, not one of his best games but improved when he dropped deeper and could get on the ball and start making things happen.

Thought Dzeko was below par, as you say his first touch was too heavy on the whole, think he'll be a very decent player for us but found it difficult yesterday. Nani and diving go hand in hand, and Rooney has developed the Drogba-style of throwing your head back as if you've been shot. The first was goal was very well taken by Nani and Rooney's was ridiculously good.

 

[Woodster]

How good is Vinny Komp though, wow. What a beast. The two best defenders in the league this season were on display with him and Vidic, and it showed. That tackle on Rooney from VK in the box was spectacular. Smalling looks a player as well. Confident, no hiccups. Like the look of him. More than Evans in any case.

Agree with all this. Kompany has developed into an outstanding centre half, much more at home in that position than in the holding midfield role, where he has been used for us in the past. Reads the game so well, powerful, strong in the air and intelligent distribution. As you say Smalling was impressive also yesterday, looked composed and dealt with everything asked of him. Vidic is also a proper centre half, puts his head on the line and throws himself in the way like any defender should, top quality.

 

[vcs]

There is no way that Steven Gerrard is 'not fit to clean Paul Scholes's boots'. Just no way in a million years.

The key bit is "as a central midfield player". Gerrard is much more versatile than Scholes and can do a decent job on the wing, or as an attacking midfielder. Just don't build your midfield around him and expect him to set the tempo against top opposition.

 

[Jarquis]

The key bit is "as a central midfield player". Gerrard is much more versatile than Scholes and can do a decent job on the wing, or as an attacking midfielder. Just don't build your midfield around him and expect him to set the tempo against top opposition.

I'd rather have 2 Gerrard's in the middle than 2 Scholes'. *shrugs*

 

[vcs]

I'd rather have 2 Gerrard's in the middle than 2 Scholes'. *shrugs*

You're planning to give them two balls to play with?

 

[Uppercut]

I'd rather have 2 Gerrard's in the middle than 2 Scholes'. *shrugs*

I've always thought of Scholes as being not quite as good as Gerrard but I disagree with that. Gerrard/Gerrard sounds a bit too much like Gerrard/Lampard- hard to build a team around.

 

[cpr]

Depends if you can convince one Gerrard to be the Defensive Gerrard, and the other to be the attacking one, would be a solid midfield that one, certainly more than a defensive/attacking Scholes duo...

 

[Uppercut]

Which Gerrard would you tell to be the defensive guy?

I don't think it's important to have one defensive and one attacking midfielder anyway. Gerrard's passing/positioning game just makes me think it'd be tough to build a team around two of him in the middle. I'd prefer to start with two game-runners than two game-changers.

But then Scholes being much older and more experienced probably has a lot to do with that.

 

[Furball]

The key bit is "as a central midfield player". Gerrard is much more versatile than Scholes and can do a decent job on the wing, or as an attacking midfielder. Just don't build your midfield around him and expect him to set the tempo against top opposition.

Scholes almost singlehandedly won Man Utd the league in 02/03 playing off van Nistelrooy as a 2nd striker/attacking midfielder. Was utterly awesome in the run in to that season.

 

[Ikki]

The key bit is "as a central midfield player". Gerrard is much more versatile than Scholes and can do a decent job on the wing, or as an attacking midfielder. Just don't build your midfield around him and expect him to set the tempo against top opposition.

*headbutts you*

Gerrard as a CM dragged Liverpool to the CL title - that says enough IMO.

Gerrard is not the kind of player you build a passing team around, but it doesn't make him any less talented as a CM. He has a good range of passing, decent completion rate and almost unparalleled workrate (in his prime). People look at Barca and guys like Xavi and think this is how CMs always were or should be. It wasn't the case until a few years ago. Xavi himself in a recent interview acknowledged that his kind of midfielder was a dying breed. For most of their careers I'd say it was guys like Keane, Vieira and Gerrard that were the prototypes.

Scholes almost singlehandedly won Man Utd the league in 02/03 playing off van Nistelrooy as a 2nd striker/attacking midfielder. Was utterly awesome in the run in to that season.

IIRC, Gerrard still scored/assisted more goals behind the forward, and did it for more than one season. Scholes was gun, but I think Gerrard has a few more dimensions that ultimately make him the better player. Gerrard from 04-09 is the most influential player I've ever seen in a team.

It's not just Zidane and Xavi, though I would argue that what they have to say does count for something. There's a whole host of them from various people on Wikiquote, all sourced, including managers like Lippi and Wenger who know a thing or two about building a side. Indeed Lippi inferred that he would build a side around Scholes, something England conspicuously failed to do.

Hiddink, Ferguson, Mourinho, Henry, Zidane, Vieira, Kaka, etc, all have said similar things if not praised Gerrard even higher.

Not sure how a United fan can't rate Gerrard - there are 36 other games in the season even if he hasn't turned up regularly against United. Your own coach called him the most influential player bar none in the season you say Scholes was better. Actually, I tend to meet a lot of United fans that rate Gerrard highly, begrudgingly.

To some extent I agree with that because I do think Gerrard at his best is potentially world class. I just don't think he plays to that potential anywhere near often enough. Ironically the one exception I would have said to that would probably be the 08/09 season where he was consistently brilliant, as opposed to 03/04. I think one of the biggest reasons that they nearly won it that season and haven't come close in any other season since 01/02 was that Gerrard actually performed consistently.

As for Chelsea in the summer of 04, there was speculation, but the figure being bandied around for his value was "only" £20m. Sure, that's quite a lot of money, but perceived world class 24 (I think) year olds generally go for more than that, especially when the club involved is Chelsea who at the time were spending ridiculous money and were involved in some very over inflated prices. Only a year later, and after telling Liverpool that he wanted to leave, the price being talked about was £30m plus. This is after he’s a year older, and wanting out, which in theory should drive a price down. It’d suggest he was more impressive in 04/05 than 03/04.

Gerrard is very consistent. If he were any more consistent Liverpool would have won several more titles despite him playing with turd players for most of his career. Gerrard's been in the team of the year in UEFA and PFA for several years (amongst the most for any player in both selections). He was PFA young player of the year as a young DM, FWA player of the year (PFA runner up) as an AM and won PFA player of the year as a wideman. People consider Lampard the model of consistency, for example, yet Gerrard's goals per game ratio (Lampard's claim to fame) is almost the same as Fat Frank's...despite being played all over the place and in an inferior side.

In 04/05 his stock went up because of his renown on the world stage - the CL. But GIMH is right...he single-handedly took Liverpool to 4th place the season before where the Reds had no business being.

 

[Furball]

Scholes > Gerrard. End of discussion.

In other news, the best player of his generation has announced his retirement today.

Ronaldo set to retire | Sky Sports | Home | News

 

[sledger]

Gerrard is not the kind of player you build a passing team around, but it doesn't make him any less talented as a CM. He has a good range of passing, decent completion rate and almost unparalleled workrate (in his prime). People look at Barca and guys like Xavi and think this is how CMs always were or should be. It wasn't the case until a few years ago. Xavi himself in a recent interview acknowledged that his kind of midfielder was a dying breed. For most of their careers I'd say it was guys like Keane, Vieira and Gerrard that were the prototypes.

AWTA with this entirely.

 

[sledger]

Scholes > Gerrard. End of discussion.

In other news, the best player of his generation has announced his retirement today.

Ronaldo set to retire | Sky Sports | Home | News

WAG. z

 

[vcs]

A true great.

EDIT : Gilberto Silva in that pic as well, WAG.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Gerrard is very consistent. If he were any more consistent Liverpool would have won several more titles despite him playing with turd players for most of his career. Gerrard's been in the team of the year in UEFA and PFA for several years (amongst the most for any player in both selections). He was PFA young player of the year as a young DM, FWA player of the year (PFA runner up) as an AM and won PFA player of the year as a wideman. People consider Lampard the model of consistency, for example, yet Gerrard's goals per game ratio (Lampard's claim to fame) is almost the same as Fat Frank's...despite being played all over the place and in an inferior side.

Was Giggs the best player in 08/09?

As for the bolded part of this, it's simply wrong.

Gerrard is always the kind of player likely to be overhyped by the English media and by extension English fans. He’s brave, gets stuck in, is obviously seen to be giving his all, etc. And being English doesn’t hurt either. You could say the same about Rooney. Albeit both are certainly capable of magic and potentially world class, neither are anything like as consistently technically brilliant on the ball as Scholes was or indeed still is, and both are over-rated by the English media. Gerrard isn’t consistent, too many games in the past year alone could be used to indicate this.

For most of their careers I'd say it was guys like Keane, Vieira and Gerrard that were the prototypes.

In England, certainly. In Europe or Worldwide, no chance.

 

[Uppercut]

AWTA with this entirely.

I'd say Keane and Vieira (especially Vieira) were both passing midfielders who also happened to be awesome at a bunch of other stuff. They gave the ball away about once a season. Arsenal's title-winning side in 2002 was built around Vieira playing the look/receive/pass/look role and he was awesome at it. In addition to being such a dominant physical presence, ball-winner and scorer of important goals.

I don't think Gerrard was ever really that guy. I don't think he's overrated, I just don't think he's that type of player.

 

[Ikki]

Was Giggs the best player in 08/09?

As for the bolded part of this, it's simply wrong.
Gerrard is always the kind of player likely to be overhyped by the English media and by extension English fans. He’s brave, gets stuck in, is obviously seen to be giving his all, etc. And being English doesn’t hurt either. You could say the same about Rooney. Albeit both are certainly capable of magic and potentially world class, neither are anything like as consistently technically brilliant on the ball as Scholes was or indeed still is, and both are over-rated by the English media. Gerrard isn’t consistent, too many games in the past year alone could be used to indicate this.

I'm a 'Pool fan, but I am not English. I think Gerrard is underrated more than anything. Would have loads of titles if he played for United, for example, and it would be undeniable in that sense. The stuff he's done for Liverpool just couldn't have been done by any other player. Despite being in such an average (at best, at times) squad he's won everything bar the league - twice runner up. Also, the people I mentioned who praised Gerrard (Hiddink, Kaka, Henry, etc) weren't English.

But I generally disagree about how good English players are. I hate to read crap like "Rooney isn't world class", "Gerrard and Lampard aren't world class", etc. English players do get hyped to a certain extent, then they hit a certain ceiling where they become targets for even the English fans themselves to take the piss out of.

Scholes is a quality player, one of the best English players ever IMO, but whilst I appreciate his fantastic passing and brain...that's not the be all and end all.

BTW, what did you disagree with in the bolded part?

In England, certainly. In Europe or Worldwide, no chance.

Although we're talking about Scholes and in that sense it is relevant...I sourced Xavi himself saying that big tall athletic players were the sought after CMs.

I'm happy because, from a selfish point of view, six years ago I was extinct; footballers like me were in danger of dying out. It was all: two metres tall, powerful, in the middle, knockdowns, second balls, rebounds … but now I see Arsenal and Villarreal and they play like us.

P.S. Giggs didn't deserve the PFA award, Gerrard who was runner-up deserved it more. It was more a life-time achievement award that year than anything.

I'd say Keane and Vieira (especially Vieira) were both passing midfielders who also happened to be awesome at a bunch of other stuff. They gave the ball away about once a season. Arsenal's title-winning side in 2002 was built around Vieira playing the look/receive/pass/look role and he was awesome at it. In addition to being such a dominant physical presence, ball-winner and scorer of important goals.

I don't think Gerrard was ever really that guy. I don't think he's overrated, I just don't think he's that type of player.

There's a lot of myth about Gerrard's passing though. True, he does try some hollywood balls and it does stick in the mind when he does...but his passing completion rate is usually 75-80% depending on the season. That's what the likes of Lampard and even Fabregas hover around, even if a little bit higher.

Gerrard was a different player to both Keane and Vieira in a big sense though. He was not only the muscle in the middle, he was the conjurer of goals. In Liverpool, Gerrard had the onus of being the matchwinner. In Arsenal and United, there were plenty of them going around. Gerrard had to make things happen. Often, that leads to jaw-dropping brilliance, and other times...row Z balls.

 

[Ikki]

A true great.

EDIT : Gilberto Silva in that pic as well, WAG.

Pre-injuries he was almost unstoppable... a freak. Even post injuries he was still one of the best in the world. Will go down as one of the greatest players of all time yet you still feel he was somewhat unfulfilled which is quite amazing when you look at it like that.