*Official* English Football Season 2010-11

[cover drive man]

2 Wins in a row, the optimism is starting to spark... I just hope we don't end up like Newcastle a few seasons back where we blame anyone to defend the manager who everyone loves. Apart from that, I can't think of a better man for the Liverpool job than Dalglish.

Also, Jeff Stelling ftw with replacing keys, if it doesn't get in the way of soccer saturday of course. Which I doubt unfortunately tbh.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Van der Saar to give it away at the end of the season. Big shoes to fill for ManUre.

 

[GIMH]

They're surely incomparable, in the same way that "all Irishmen eat potatoes" isn't comparable to "all black people eat bananas", despite being logistically the same thing. And the level to which society has stamped out discrimination isn't measured by how socially acceptable it is to make stereotypical jokes on the group in question; if anything my previous comparison suggests that they're negatively correlated.

Not to say their comments were acceptable, but they're not on the same level as Fat Ron's outburst. I'd think nothing of it if an acquaintance said what Gray/Keys did, apart from that they were probably a bit of a dick. If someone said to me what Ron did I'd be absolutely stunned.

Nah, disagree, although I do agree with the bolded.

I don't think Gray/Keys were joking about though - their tone didn't imply as such. And the different levels of how bad it is to discriminate against certain groups often tends to be based on the challenges those groups have faced. I'd say the fact that Sian Massey was only the second ever woman to officiate in the Prem actually makes their comments worse than if they were made about a referee based on race, for example.

Atkinson's comments had the shock factor based on the language used. The attitude of Grays and Keys is much more damaging IMO. Atkinson was an idiot who decided to use the n-word but didn't (to my knowledge) actually give the reason he was black to slate him. Keys and Gray actually doubted her ability to perform based on her gender. Much more of a damaging attitude, surely.

 

[sledger]

Nah, disagree, although I do agree with the italicised.

I don't think Gray/Keys were joking about though - their tone didn't imply as such. And the different levels of how bad it is to discriminate against certain groups often tends to be based on the challenges those groups have faced. I'd say the fact that Sian Massey was only the second ever woman to officiate in the Prem actually makes their comments worse than if they were made about a referee based on race, for example.

Atkinson's comments had the shock factor based on the language used. The attitude of Grays and Keys is much more damaging IMO. Atkinson was an idiot who decided to use the n-word but didn't (to my knowledge) actually give the reason he was black to slate him. Keys and Gray actually doubted her ability to perform based on her gender. Much more of a damaging attitude, surely.

The entire quote appears to be italicised

But yes, I largely agree with all you have said. It was the intent of the act rather than the form of the act which is the crux of the matter for mine. Watched Keys' interview with Talksport on the BBC website earlier, found it very hard to accept the sincerity of what he said with regards to his apology and how it was just a bit of fun etc...

 

[Uppercut]

It seems less likely to me that they actually believe that women linesmen don't know the offside rule, though. I mean, while their tone didn't suggest they were "joking", they certainly weren't "serious". Something in between.

I'm more inclined to condemn Ron than I am to try to defend Gray & Keys though. Could well be a generational thing but the n-word definitely isn't something a non-racist guy casually blurts out when talking about a black footballer. It's a comment that revealed a lot about how he sees black people, whether it directly implied that they were in some way inferior on account of their race or not.

 

[sledger]

It seems less likely to me that they actually believe that women linesmen don't know the offside rule, though. I mean, while their tone didn't suggest they were "joking", they certainly weren't "serious". Something in between.

I'm more inclined to condemn Ron than I am to try to defend Gray & Keys though. Could well be a generational thing but the n-word definitely isn't something a non-racist guy casually blurts out when talking about a black footballer. It's a comment that revealed a lot about how he sees black people, whether it directly implied that they were in some way inferior on account of their race or not.

The thing is though, is that Ron grew up in a time when to bandy around the N word was not considered to be outright unnaceptable, I honestly don't think it reveals anything about his character other than he's perhaps a bit of a bumbling old man who had a momentary lapse in keeping in line with what is now considered to be socially acceptable.

The difference between Keys and Gray, is that they knew that what they were saying was deliberately condescending and in all honesty malicious.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, I'm not defending Big Ron for a minute. There's a fine line between I'm not racist but and what not, but the black players who played under Atkinson speak highly of him, and he brought loads through into his side. Sure, it's not nice that that's how he refers to them but I don't think it's as black and white (unintended pun) as you make it to assume that someone who uses that word must be an out and out racist. Actual discrimination is surely much more damning than using a specific word, however vile.

And by the way, I do think Gray was being entirely serious. We've all made and heard ***ist jokes but his tone to me implied someone who believed what he was saying.

 

[BoyBrumby]

It's not just the use of the n-word per se tho, it was that Fat Ron used it as abuse.

Frank McLintock also used it on Sky; he came out with the antiquated phrase "****** in the woodpile" on a broadcast. Yes, it's an unfortunate turn of phrase and Frank had his wrist slapped, but he wasn't using the n-word as abuse, just that particular expression as a synonym for "fly in the ointment".

 

[GIMH]

It's not just the use of the n-word per se tho, it was that Fat Ron used it as abuse.

Frank McLintock also used it on Sky; he came out with the antiquated phrase "****** in the woodpile" on a broadcast. Yes, it's an unfortunate turn of phrase and Frank had his wrist slapped, but he wasn't using the n-word as abuse, just that particular expression as a synonym for "fly in the ointment".

Yeah, fair enough. But again, I think the problem is that Atkinson views that as an adjective for black people, rather than the context that is the problem. If he had called him a lazy ****ing c-word, would he have been as censured? I guess not.

I fully agree with the fact that Big Ron was removed, but I also think that what Grays and Keys said implies more damaging thoughts. Again, I don't think Ron's words suggested that the reason Desailly was lazy was because he was black - more it suggested he belonged to an age where it was sadly acceptable to speak about black people in that way and he had never moved on. He didn't question Desailly's right to be in the team based on his skin colour, and his record at Villa certainly backs that up.

On the other hand, based on what Keys & Gray said, they firmly believed that Sian Massey shouldn't be running the line based purely on her gender, i.e. if they were selecting referees, there would be no women. I didn't watch the game but I believe she did just fine. If she hadn't, they'd have no doubt blamed it on her gender (like they did Wendy Toms) ignoring the fact they spend most Sundays slating male officials.

 

[Furball]

The thing is though, is that Ron grew up in a time when to bandy around the N word was not considered to be outright unnaceptable, I honestly don't think it reveals anything about his character other than he's perhaps a bit of a bumbling old man who had a momentary lapse in keeping in line with what is now considered to be socially acceptable.

The difference between Keys and Gray, is that they knew that what they were saying was deliberately condescending and in all honesty malicious.

Not only that, but Atkinson managed and played a bunch of black players at a time when racism and discrimination against blacks in football was a perfectly normal thing, be it from the terraces or from those within the game. The success of players such as Cyril Regis under Atkinson did a lot to break the prejudices that existed against blacks from within the game. As late as the early 1990s the higher ups at Crystal Palace justified a lack of black players in the side because they didn't have the toughness and character that white players allegedly possessed. Arguably this discrimination still goes on - despite the success of Carlos Khameni at Espanyol and Steve Mandanda at Marseille, there still seems to be a prejudice against black goalkeepers. Dave James aside, there's been relatively few in English football, and it might just be the last bastion of anti-black discrimination in this country.

Keys and Gray have proven that whilst the game in this country has come a long way in eliminating the subtle discrimination that existed against black players (and Atkinson, despite his foolish choice of words, played a huge role in this), we're still stuck in the 19th century when it comes to the involvement of women in the sport. And that's why, IMO, Grays and Keys offence is worse than Atkinson's.

 

[The Sean]

And by the way, I do think Gray was being entirely serious. We've all made and heard ***ist jokes but his tone to me implied someone who believed what he was saying.

Yeah, agreed. I've listened to it a couple of times now and there's not a single hint to me in his tone that indicates he's joking in any way.

Van der Saar to give it away at the end of the season. Big shoes to fill for ManUre.

Meh, can't see it being a problem. Look at how seamlessly we replaced big Pete.

 

[grecian]

Major - and boy do I mean it - football exclusive coming up on guardian.co.uk sometime around 5.30.

From Guardian bloke, waiting for the anti-climax, tbh

 

[GIMH]

Dale Jennings, new five-year deal with the Whites, I reckon

 

[The Sean]

From Guardian bloke, waiting for the anti-climax, tbh

Dale Jennings, new five-year deal with the Whites, I reckon

Nothing so exciting.

Inter to bid £40m for Gareth Bale | Football | The Guardian

 

[Pothas]

Yeah not particularly exciting

Inter to bid £40m for Gareth Bale | Football | The Guardian

 

[grecian]

Glad I was prepared for an anti-climax, because damn did I get one

 

[BoyBrumby]

Gee wot a swizz.

If Bale had signed for Inter it might have been vaguely newsworthy, but the intention to bid in the summer? Pfft.

 

[The Sean]

Yeah, exactly - I saw the pic before the words and thought "**** me, someone signed Bale."

The story as it stands - "Big club to make big bid for hot young player in six months time. Maybe."

 

[Cevno]

Inter CEO denies club will offer $64 million for Gareth Bale #Spurs #Inter




This has to be the biggest fail ever.

 

[Cevno]

Tottenham dismiss Gareth Bale transfer reports as 'rubbish' - Telegraph