*Official* English Football Season 2006-07

[Craig]

To be fair to him he was able to break the Celtic-Rangers duoply in Scotland he did win the CWC with Abeerdeen. More then creditible performances indeed.

 

[GIMH]

No, I was accusing the filter of being an Aston Vanilla supporter because it wouldn't let me cast nasturtiums at one of their former managers.

(it was in reply to your quiz question asking who the manager was at the time)

Right, got ya

 

[GIMH]

Fergie's been the most successful British manager ever IMO. Winning the Treble isn't easy and United earned their money not like Chelsea. That's in relation to Marc's chequebook comment. Success begets reward and hatred.

Success isn't measured in opinion, it's measured in fact

Now, I'm no Liverpool fan. But growing up round here, and son to a red father, I do feel it necessary to debate your comment

Paisley:

3 European Cups (77,78, 81)
6 League Titles
3 League Cups
1 European Super Cup
1 UEFA Cup

That is in 9 years, only in his first did Liverpool finish trophyless. He also left a legacy whereby Liverpool dominated for 7 more years after his departure

Ferguson (Man U only):

1 European Cup
8 League Titles
5 FA Cups
2 League Cups
1 Cup Winners Cup
1 Super Cup
1 Intercontinental Cup

That is in about twenty seasons. While he had the job of rebuilding Man U, his record still compares unfavourably with Paisley's: he has won only one European Cup, to Paisley's three, despite having more chances to win it. Liverpool also won the European Cup the year after Paisley left, and reached the final the year after that. Fergie's 8 titles is a tremendous record, but you can't help but think that had Paisley stayed at Liverpool longer, he would have easily eclipsed that, the fact that they won 4 more (I think) in the years following his departure says a lot, whereas Man U are already on the decline. Paisley won three successive League Cups when it was a trophy that teams cared about, the second of Fergie's came last season, only going for it because they had nothing else to win.

Fergie may have won more trophies, but that is because he had more time to do so. Paisley was a better manager, and a more successful one, and it is a complete travesty that Fergie got knighted and Paisley didn't. Simple as.

 

[steds]

Winning the Treble isn't easy and United earned their money not like Chelsea. That's in relation to Marc's chequebook comment.

August 1989. Bought Gary Pallister for what was a record fee (£2.3m) between British clubs at that time.
August 93. Broke the record again. £3.75m for Roy Keane.
February 95. And again. Andy Cole for £7m.
To break that record 3 times in 5 and a half years shows they were spending a relatively large amount compared to the other clubs. Perhaps they didn't have a mind bogglingly rich benefactor like Chelsea, but they were still splashing out.

 

[Tom Halsey]

August 1989. Bought Gary Pallister for what was a record fee (£2.3m) between British clubs at that time.
August 93. Broke the record again. £3.75m for Roy Keane.
February 95. And again. Andy Cole for £7m.
To break that record 3 times in 5 and a half years shows they were spending a relatively large amount compared to the other clubs. Perhaps they didn't have a mind bogglingly rich benefactor like Chelsea, but they were still splashing out.

That's the point - no-one's denying we still spent a lot.

Also, half of our team that won the European Cup was the product of our own youth system - can you say that of Chelsea?

 

[Tom Halsey]

Success isn't measured in opinion, it's measured in fact

Now, I'm no Liverpool fan. But growing up round here, and son to a red father, I do feel it necessary to debate your comment

Paisley:

3 European Cups (77,78, 81)
6 League Titles
3 League Cups
1 European Super Cup
1 UEFA Cup

That is in 9 years, only in his first did Liverpool finish trophyless. He also left a legacy whereby Liverpool dominated for 7 more years after his departure

Ferguson (Man U only):

1 European Cup
8 League Titles
5 FA Cups
2 League Cups
1 Cup Winners Cup
1 Super Cup
1 Intercontinental Cup

That is in about twenty seasons. While he had the job of rebuilding Man U, his record still compares unfavourably with Paisley's: he has won only one European Cup, to Paisley's three, despite having more chances to win it. Liverpool also won the European Cup the year after Paisley left, and reached the final the year after that. Fergie's 8 titles is a tremendous record, but you can't help but think that had Paisley stayed at Liverpool longer, he would have easily eclipsed that, the fact that they won 4 more (I think) in the years following his departure says a lot, whereas Man U are already on the decline. Paisley won three successive League Cups when it was a trophy that teams cared about, the second of Fergie's came last season, only going for it because they had nothing else to win.

Fergie may have won more trophies, but that is because he had more time to do so. Paisley was a better manager, and a more successful one, and it is a complete travesty that Fergie got knighted and Paisley didn't. Simple as.

I'll give you the fact that we should have won the European Cup more, but comparing the two records is still very unfair - Ferguson had to completelyt rebuild the team, whereas Paisley didn't. Conmsidering that he completely rebuilt the team, the fact that he's had longer at it than Paisley doesn't really mean much considering a large part of it was sppent rebuilding.

 

[Tom Halsey]

No, he doesn't deserve a knighthood when there are many other managers who did similar or better things when the PM didn't try to look cool and hand out honours to win votes.

Very very few managers have done better things.

 

[GIMH]

I'll give you the fact that we should have won the European Cup more, but comparing the two records is still very unfair - Ferguson had to completelyt rebuild the team, whereas Paisley didn't. Conmsidering that he completely rebuilt the team, the fact that he's had longer at it than Paisley doesn't really mean much considering a large part of it was sppent rebuilding.

Even if you ignore his rebuilding phase, his titles to seasons ratio is about 1:2, that's starting around 90, whereas Paisley's is 2:3. Of course, the best way to judge them will be when Ferguson retires. I can't see his legacy lasting the same way Paisley's did, I honestly can't.

 

[marc71178]

Also, half of our team that won the European Cup was the product of our own youth system - can you say that of Chelsea?

4 is half of 13?

 

[GIMH]

In fact the homegrown players who played numbered 3, G Neville, Butt and Beckham. Scholes was suspended and Phil Neville never played, presumably because he's crap.

 

[Barney Rubble]

Pompey sign Glen Johnson on loan for a season () and Tony Adams as assistant manager (). Come on Harry, you can do better than that.

 

[sledger]

4 is half of 13?

beat me to it, not like chelsea didnt have home a home grown player in their side either, even those that werent home grown so to speak were developed in london.

 

[GIMH]

Terry, Lampard Cole etc for example

 

[sledger]

yes precisely, whereas i believe the only genuine lancastrian in that side was gary neville, maybe scholes and butt as well but i cant remember if they played or not, or where in fact they originate from anyway.

 

[GIMH]

Scholes didn't play

Not sure where Butt hails from. But yes "homegrown" is a loose term.

 

[sledger]

then halseys claims become even more obsurd

 

[marc71178]

In fact the homegrown players who played numbered 3, G Neville, Butt and Beckham. Scholes was suspended and Phil Neville never played, presumably because he's crap.

To be fair, Giggs did come from the youth team as well.

 

[Craig]

beat me to it, not like chelsea didnt have home a home grown player in their side either, even those that werent home grown so to speak were developed in london.

Wasn't John Terry club trained though?

Only really West Ham can say they have been developing players and Charlton was orginally where Jermain Defoe came from IIRC.

 

[Craig]

then halseys claims become even more obsurd

Absurd

Unless I'm missing something obvious...

 

[sledger]

it happens a lot craig, so i wont hold my breath.