**Official** England in The West Indies

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

u have just contradicted urself there...if the west indies dont play so well abroad while england are decent abroad...both with useless bowling attacks clearly englands batting is more talented than the west indies.

England has bowled better than the West Indies abroad by a long way. Hence they compete. When the West Indies team is giving up 500+ runs every innings, it tends to be hard to win.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

and yet u rate sarwan and gayle so highly???at least sarwan has hope...he has a reasonably good technique and is getting better...IMO gayle hasnt changed a bit since he made his debut.

I rate Gayle because of his fighting spirit, but I certainly don't rate him as highly as Sarwan and I've never rated him as one of the best Test batsmen in the world.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Just because Collins offers variation, it doent make him of Test standard.

I never claimed he was. However, he has worked on his game and it can't hurt much to give him another chance, especially if Sanford is the other option.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

yes an average of 37 odd abroad makes him one of the best test players in the world at the moment doesnt it?IMO hes a decent batsman definetly test class but nothing special at all.

I really can't be bothered defending Chanderpaul. He's played superbly when the rest of the West Indian lineup crumbled failed to answer the call and for that I commend him.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I was reading an interesting article in a local paper today. It stated that eye witnesses claim that the four players accused of partying in the stands after the 1st Test were falsely accused.

The article read that the players were in the party stand yes, but they were interacting with fans - conversing - not drinking, dancing or anything of the sort.

Will scan the article at some point I expect.

 

[garage flower]

I never claimed he was. However, he has worked on his game and it can't hurt much to give him another chance, especially if Sanford is the other option.

But won't they both be playing unless we go with just 3 specialist bowlers?

I agree though, that Pedro has earned another chance.

 

[garage flower]

I was reading an interesting article in a local paper today. It stated that eye witnesses claim that the four players accused of partying in the stands after the 1st Test were falsely accused.

The article read that the players were in the party stand yes, but they were interacting with fans - conversing - not drinking, dancing or anything of the sort.

Will scan the article at some point I expect.

There's a similar view expressed in an eyewitness article on Caribbeancricket.com. It seems that this story may have been sensationalised a little.

 

[Mister Wright]

I really can't be bothered defending Chanderpaul. He's played superbly when the rest of the West Indian lineup crumbled failed to answer the call and for that I commend him.

Nor should you have to defend Chanderpaul. He is a very good batsman. I have seen him play some classy innings at times when the other batsman in the team make the West Indies look like a grade side.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

and where in the world have i made one good comment about trescothick???trescothick is the worst test batsmen in the team AFAIC, even worse than giles.just gotta wonder how long the selectors are gonna keep persisting with him...i hope they dont till the next test match at the oval

The guy averages over 42 in test cricket and 38 in one dayers, yet he's the worst batsmen ever according to some people :P Lots of batsmen have little / no footmovement, its just they can control themselfs from fishing outside off stump, something trescothick can do if he puts his mind to it but ofen has long spells where he cant resist

 

[tooextracool]

I really can't be bothered defending Chanderpaul. He's played superbly when the rest of the West Indian lineup crumbled failed to answer the call and for that I commend him.

dont get me wrong here... i am in no way questioning chanderpaul's ability as a batsman...my point was that the english batting line up of butcher,vaughan,hussain,thorpe and collingwood are better than the west indian batting lineup that revolves completely around lara and chanderpaul

 

[tooextracool]

The guy averages over 42 in test cricket and 38 in one dayers, yet he's the worst batsmen ever according to some people :P Lots of batsmen have little / no footmovement, its just they can control themselfs from fishing outside off stump, something trescothick can do if he puts his mind to it but ofen has long spells where he cant resist

and when was the last time uve seen tresco controlling himself from fishing outside the off stump?was it on englands tour of australia or when SA toured england? correct me if im wrong here...after the australian tour he mentioned that he had worked on his weakness outside the offstump and had sorted it out right?and how many times was he dismissed caught behind or in slips against the South africans ?? or for that matter what shot was he playing when he was dismissed in the 1st innings against the west indies? u like most other people fail to look beyond averages...the guy is what u call a flat pitch bad bowling bully and its no coincidence that he failed on both series against the australians or that he failed in seaming conditions in NZ or that he struggles at headingly but averages an amazing 92 at the oval or that he failed in every test against the South africans before he scored 214 and 69* at the only ground that he can actually bat on..yep the oval

 

[Fred Jr]

It strikes me that Trescothick has a similar batting style to that of Graeme Smith, and that although he doesn't regularly produce the goods for England at the moment, it is only his mental approach to batting that separates him from someone like Smith, who is beginning to prove himself a great batsman (I don't want to start a big debate about him though - if you disagree, just keep it quiet) and that if Trescothick could get his confidence sorted out, and develop a bit more patience, he could begin to play the kind of innings that he is obviously capable of more regularly. Neither he or Smith move their feet much, but it is obvious from the amount of runs Smith has scored in the past year or so that that needn't be a barrier to success.

 

[Arjun]

Interesting point about Smith. Being the captain, he tries to set an example for the rest of the team, which is why he is a positive player. If you remember, he said he was 'angry' about the defeat in the NatWest ODI's, so he tried hard to undo that damage. It worked in the first 2 Tests, where he got a lot of runs. But this 'anger' may have got the better of him in the matches that followed, as he struggled to get past 20.

If Trescothick can play more positively, he can produce more big innings as in the Oval, which has to be one of the best innings by an opener. You see a lot of potential out there. Sure, there was a droppecd catch or two, but this is a double century, not 24-25 runs. His footwork has a problem, but then, that might be his style of batting, unlike, say, Nick Knight, who steps out quite often. When I had seen him in India, he did bat quite well, except in the final Test, and he carried on the good form in the ODI's. It's only in the Ashes that he had problems with he moving ball, but he can improve. When he gets in, he stays in. Better than some experienced players who struggle for 20/30 runs, then throw it all away.

 

[badgerhair]

If Trescothick can play more positively, he can produce more big innings as in the Oval, which has to be one of the best innings by an opener. You see a lot of potential out there. Sure, there was a droppecd catch or two, but this is a double century, not 24-25 runs. His footwork has a problem, but then, that might be his style of batting, unlike, say, Nick Knight, who steps out quite often. When I had seen him in India, he did bat quite well, except in the final Test, and he carried on the good form in the ODI's. It's only in the Ashes that he had problems with he moving ball, but he can improve. When he gets in, he stays in. Better than some experienced players who struggle for 20/30 runs, then throw it all away.

Most English fans would suggest that the last thing Trescothick needs to do is play "more positively". Indeed, it was because he exercised self-restraint and caution until he was very well-set that he succeeded in passing 20 at The Oval last year.

His recurring fault is chasing wide ones outside off stump, and not being in control of the shot because he is too rooted to the crease to get across to the ball. If he were less "positive", he wouldn't chase as many and wouldn't get out that way so often.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Rik]

dont get me wrong here... i am in no way questioning chanderpaul's ability as a batsman...my point was that the english batting line up of butcher,vaughan,hussain,thorpe and collingwood are better than the west indian batting lineup that revolves completely around lara and chanderpaul

But it isn't, there's Gayle, there's the young Devon Smith who scored a ton last game, remember? There's Ryan Hinds who looks better than Thorpe does at the moment, and Sarwan's a much better player than one LBW down legside and another that was a bit high, and 2 0s.

 

[Arjun]

His recurring fault is chasing wide ones outside off stump, and not being in control of the shot because he is too rooted to the crease to get across to the ball. If he were less "positive", he wouldn't chase as many and wouldn't get out that way so often.

If he left those wide deliveries outside off and just played straight, or towards square leg, as he did in India, he'd get more runs, wouldn't he?

 

[badgerhair]

If he left those wide deliveries outside off and just played straight, or towards square leg, as he did in India, he'd get more runs, wouldn't he?

Yes, he would. And then people would stop criticising him and suggesting he be replaced.

It's rather bizarre that it was a finger injury sustained while fielding after which he has been seemingly unable to bat properly - with the exception of that Oval innings - because I can't see why a broken finger would cause you to start chasing wide balls outside off stump without moving your feet.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[tooextracool]

It's only in the Ashes that he had problems with he moving ball, but he can improve.

yes it seems that against the good bowling attacks he fails particularly on seaming wickets..and improvement is something he hasnt shown after 2 consecutive failures in 2 ashes series.

Originally posted by Arjun When he gets in, he stays in. Better than some experienced players who struggle for 20/30 runs, then throw it all away. [/B]

is this tresco or vaughan ur talking about??when he gets 20/30 he gets out more often than he stays in..if he gets past 30 he gets out at 40!!lets look at his performances from the ashes tour..

ashes - 72,1,35,0,34,4,37,37,19, 22
zimbabwe - 59,DNB,43,DNB
south africa- 31,52*,6.23,24,0,59,4,219,69*,
bangladesh- 113,32,60,1*
sri lanka - 23,24,36,14,70,0

frankly we all know that performances against sri lanka and bangladesh dont count so lets look at the other 3 series.
is that the player u speak of who when set doesnt throw it away???i think not!!frankly the only time hes actually gone to score big was against the bangladeshis(we all know that doesnt matter) and at the oval(the only ground on which he can bat). these performances show one thing that ive been stating from the beginning....hes a flat pitch poor bowling bully

no of starts+thrown it away = 17
no of failures = 8
no of times he has gone on to score big = twice(against bangladesh and at the oval)

 

[tooextracool]

But it isn't, there's Gayle, there's the young Devon Smith who scored a ton last game, remember? There's Ryan Hinds who looks better than Thorpe does at the moment, and Sarwan's a much better player than one LBW down legside and another that was a bit high, and 2 0s.

i will not discuss gayle again...i have already expressed my opinions abt him clearly.
i havent seen smith or hinds bat. let me make my point clear... i was saying that the english batting lineup is better than the WI batting lineup,and to compare ryan hinds and devon smith both who have done nothing to prove themselves(a performance at home doesnt count) at the international level to the likes of thorpe is quite ludicrous. thorpe has scored runs against every country all over the world and there is no reason that continual failures +one 80 odd should let comparisons be drawn between ryan hinds and thorpe.
yes sarwan is a much better player than those 2 0s suggest but my point is not that sarwan is not test match standard....personally i think he has a good technique and may develop into a useful cricketer...but my point is that he is no where in the same class as hussain,butcher,vaughan who have shown time and time again that they are quality batsmen

 

[PY]

frankly we all know that performances against sri lanka and bangladesh dont count so lets look at the other 3 series.

Discounting Sri Lanka like that isn't really fair. Especially as it was on the sub-continent.

Plus two of those three series were against the 2 best bowling attacks in the world IMO. McGrath and Warne were still playing remember in the Ashes.

On a side note, you got to love Mr Boycott's ability to just spit out what he is thinking.

"The medium-pacers - Corey Collymore and Adam Sanford - would not bowl my mum out."

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