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**Official** England in The West Indies

chris.hinton

International Captain
My thoughts on the days play


I thought England just about won the days play but i felt we let the West Indies off the hook. The Bowling became wayward and that seemed to Stem from Giles coming on, having said that Giles get the two danger man out while he was Flighting the ball more. and we see to gain Confidence but we still have not got the killer touch that Gough and Caddick had....

Smith looks a Decent batsman and he scored a good hundard including some good 4 if fact a lot of his Runs come from 4s, But i feel you stop Lara they West Indies will not score 400
 

SquidAU

First Class Debutant
Well done to Devon Smith for a fine century under pressure and his first to boot. England certainly let the West Indies get away with it during the day......they coulda had them!:D
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
SpaceMonkey said:
All fair comments (although i really think Jones can be the best english bowler for years if he can just keep injury free and stay in the team), but who would you have replace these bowlers then?
Giles just doesn't deserve selection, you don't select a spinner if there is no one good enough or the conditions do not suit the bowler unless they are so good it doesn't matter, a la Warne and Murali. When your main spinner isn't performing then you must look around for other options, since with an average of 40, Giles hardly holds a case for keeping his spot and you might as well try someone else out, even if they don't take many wickets there is no point in playing the same spinner who you know isn't good enough in the 1st place. Despite the common view, England has a lot of useful seamers, Kevin Dean might be worth a shot but the selectors have never even shown an interist. Saggers didn't do anything wrong in his only Test appearance and was bowled sparingly, not allowed the long spells he tends to bowl for Kent. Kabir Ali has been thrown on the scrap heap after impressing, Kirtley is messed around as is Johnson. The talent is there, even if you look as far as Chad Keegan of Middlesex who's raw, but then, since when have the selectors worried about that?
 

Swanny

School Boy/Girl Captain
It's certainly true that Giles did a bowl alot of utter rubbish today and the first 2 overs were plain embarrasing. That said he did take the wickets of the 2 guys who scored the most runs. If hes going to bowl rubbish all the time and still get wickets then i'd keep him in.

As for Harmison I watched the whole day and thought his first spell was very good(as was Hoggards). His spell between lunch and tea wasn't great but he posed more problems on the day than any other bowler except maybe Jones.

I thought a very encouraging day for England yesterday considering it was a good pitch and against a very talented West Indies batting line up.

Also credit to Hinds because when he came in he looked all over the place, I think David Llyod got it about right when he called him a "walking wicket" but he stuck it out and scored valuable runs.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Swanny said:
It's certainly true that Giles did a bowl alot of utter rubbish today and the first 2 overs were plain embarrasing. That said he did take the wickets of the 2 guys who scored the most runs. If hes going to bowl rubbish all the time and still get wickets then i'd keep him in.

As for Harmison I watched the whole day and thought his first spell was very good(as was Hoggards). His spell between lunch and tea wasn't great but he posed more problems on the day than any other bowler except maybe Jones.

I thought a very encouraging day for England yesterday considering it was a good pitch and against a very talented West Indies batting line up.

Also credit to Hinds because when he came in he looked all over the place, I think David Llyod got it about right when he called him a "walking wicket" but he stuck it out and scored valuable runs.
Harmison is due a few good performances, but the major problem is when he bowls well, he still slips away badly enough not to get anywhere near finishing it off. I suppose Hoggard is guilty of similer, but the thing about Hoggard is that he's allways doing something with the ball, allways attacking the batsman, allways trading runs in an effort to take wickets. Harmison will often drift off into bowling wide outside off-stump or hitting the batsman's thigh pad constantly. His econ is usually good, but his strike rate is poor, but after a while most batsmen tend to put away his wide deliveries and he goes to pieces sending balls down the legside, there were quite a few balls which should have been called wides, but in order to bowl a wide in Test Cricket it seems like you have to bowl it off the square! Certianly if Bowden hadn't been too hasty, Harmison would only have one wicket. Gayle has a very off and on technique, and really shouldn't have dragged that ball on, so there goes his other one. I must say Lara was out of sorts against everyone, and Hoggard troubled more of the batsmen than Harmison did, but didn't get much reward and went off near the end. He deserved to get Smith, but Sarwan was a little lucky, but they make up for each other.
 

Swanny

School Boy/Girl Captain
I'm sorry but you can't just dismiss wickets like that. Taking Harmisons wicket against Gayle away because you didn't like the shot is silly and petty. I'm not saying he bowled like a world beater but his spell with the new ball was a very good one, and it seems like that is a hard thing for some people to accept. But like you said he did slip off in one spell but then came back well later in the day. He's not the finished article but for me there is no doubt he's worthy of a place in the side.

As for Hoggard again I thought his first spell again was very good and when the ball swings I think hes our best bowler. It should also be noted that he had Smith stone dead lbw when he had scored virtually nothing. Umpiring mistakes happen however and thats just sport, yet if Harmisons didn't "deserve" Best's wicket does this mean that Smith didn't "deserve" his hundred either?
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Swanny said:
I'm sorry but you can't just dismiss wickets like that. Taking Harmisons wicket against Gayle away because you didn't like the shot is silly and petty. I'm not saying he bowled like a world beater but his spell with the new ball was a very good one, and it seems like that is a hard thing for some people to accept. But like you said he did slip off in one spell but then came back well later in the day. He's not the finished article but for me there is no doubt he's worthy of a place in the side.

As for Hoggard again I thought his first spell again was very good and when the ball swings I think hes our best bowler. It should also be noted that he had Smith stone dead lbw when he had scored virtually nothing. Umpiring mistakes happen however and thats just sport, yet if Harmisons didn't "deserve" Best's wicket does this mean that Smith didn't "deserve" his hundred either?
I'm not being petty, believe me if I wanted to be petty I could. It's just that Harmison has got away with being the best of a pretty bad bunch or performing only against weak opposition, or at least having someone bowling worse than he does. The only reason why his average is where it is is because the Zimbabweans and Bangladeshis cannot bat against even average bowling, Johnson came in and did just the same as Harmison did, in both series, so why isn't he picked consistantly? Harmison didn't deserve Best's wicket, just as Hoggard didn't deserve Sarwan's, a dodgy LBW doesn't hint at good bowling, just luck. Yes Harmison took Gayle's wicket but the ball wasn't amazing, and Gayle basically got himself out, the edge could have just as easily missed the stumps and it was nowhere near a clever bit of bowling that took the edge and was caught or a full on, all ends up, unplayable ball that bowled him. He had a few edges off him but the batsmen tended to go at them hard and when you go at them hard, they hardly ever go to hand, certainly would have been very hard to hold on to even if they had. Certainly I do not agree that Harmison deserves to be there, if he deserves to be there then why has Johnson played so little (accepting he's injured at the moment)? The only things he's missing from having a record like Harmison's are 2 very poor series against Australia and South Africa. Why is Kirtley messed around? He took 6-32 against South Africa no less, won the Test for his team, doesn't that deserve a place? Or do you have to take wickets against weak teams? No! Johnson did that...

It just appears he's picked on pace and potential, not on ability, which he's not really showed much of at all. Marc will bring up the "the rest of the attack didn't perform" arguement but it's easy to break that down when you realise it includes Hoggard in Australia when it doesn't swing, Vaughan, Butcher, Dawson, Giles...

Admittely Jones is in the same boat, but he does tend to get the good players out (Langer, Sehwag, Lara).

If I was being petty I'd say it's unfair they keep defending his fielding, because I'm only an inch shorter, and I've been picked for a lot of teams simply on fielding ability.
 
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Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Swervy said:
Tony Greig is perving at the girls:D
Like that's a surprise. I bet Nicholas is raving about how "Goooood" Flintoff and Harmison are again. How someone can talk so much rubbish in such an annoying way beats me.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Shane Warne said:
As soon as England turn up, Suddenly the Windies can bat again, funny that.
Well at least we stopped Lara scoring! :P

I find it funnier that as soon as England come against decent batsmen (including this series and Sri Lanka), all the wide deliveries are left and suddenly the edges dry up...
 

Swanny

School Boy/Girl Captain
Well i'm fairly certain that your own fielding ability hasn't been tested to quite the same level as international cricket so I think we'll rule that one out.

I think you may have answered your own question when you said why isn't Johnson playing when for most of the last years tests they haven't been able to pick him because hes been injured.

As for Kirtley well yes agreed I think he has been slightly mistreated, although doubts remain over his ability to take wickets when the pitch doesn't help him. Personally i'd like Harmison in the team because he does offer something different, the same with Jones. The England management, the ones who watch these players week in week out in the nets as well obviously agree.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Swanny said:
Well i'm fairly certain that your own fielding ability hasn't been tested to quite the same level as international cricket so I think we'll rule that one out.

I think you may have answered your own question when you said why isn't Johnson playing when for most of the last years tests they haven't been able to pick him because hes been injured.

As for Kirtley well yes agreed I think he has been slightly mistreated, although doubts remain over his ability to take wickets when the pitch doesn't help him. Personally i'd like Harmison in the team because he does offer something different, the same with Jones. The England management, the ones who watch these players week in week out in the nets as well obviously agree.
Well my fielding got me a nickname "Jonty", I'm not saying I've been tested but they keep saying Harmison can't field because of his height, which is rubbish.

Johnson hasn't been injured all the time though, he's not been picked even when he's fit. Anyway he doesn't bowl fast.

It's quite a pity England had a bowler who did Harmison's job a lot better, Andy Caddick, but it looks like he's out. There's no need to have something different, Giles is different but is he a better option than a seamer most of the time? To be fair I'd much rather have Hoggard bowling good line and length with a few young strike bowlers giving the batsmen hell than Harmison bowling wide enough to give most batsmen time to play themselves in.

Anyway I'm off.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
west indies are all out without adding a run to their overnight score
hoggard finally manages to find the edge and flintoff seems to be good at something(slip catching)
 

PY

International Coach
5.4 Edwards to Vaughan, FOUR, overpitched, see you later, Vaughan charms it through the covers

That's the baby. :)

C'mon England!
 

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