**Official** England in The West Indies

[Craig]

I was only kidding anyway, I'm sure you worked for it. I'm just jealous of everyone with SKy as I've only watched 2 ODI in the past 3 years.

One being England v Australia, WC 2003 and England v Pakistan NatWest Trophy 2003.

Wow.

That is amazing. Dont they show cricket in England on free to air TV (domestic internationals ie Tests, Natwest Series)?

 

[marc71178]

so where did we lose the match yesterday?i think we're short one genuine FAST bowler,especially since harmison has cut his pace by about 10 mph.

Yesterday we were a slow bowler short, not a quick!

Harmison cutting his pace is more to do with fatigue and the fact that in ODI's pace isn't as crucial.

I'd give him a break now till the 1st Test.

 

[marc71178]

Im tired of this defence that a player can only do so much when they come in late in the order & have to attack straight away.

The way ODI cricket is currently played, selectors are surely picking #7 & #8 batsmen with the thought in mind that they can up the run-rate in the final stages.

Yes, and when he gets out trying to do that he gets criticised!

That wicket that those 2 games have been played on was not an easy wicket to come in and immediately score runs (especially against the slower bowlers where power was needed)

Clarke isn't necessarily a power hitter (in the mould of Blackwell or Flintoff) so he was going to struggle.

As I see it, there's nobody in the squad who could have come in and definitely performed better in that role than him.

 

[Craig]

Im tired of this defence that a player can only do so much when they come in late in the order & have to attack straight away.

The way ODI cricket is currently played, selectors are surely picking #7 & #8 batsmen with the thought in mind that they can up the run-rate in the final stages.
It's common knowledge now that if you're batting in the lower-order you've got to become good at it or else you'll be dropped for the next person.
It's almost a specialist role now, something that I think Abdul Razzaq has done quite well at recently.

Brendan McCullum was demonstrating this point of late for New Zealand in recent ODIs, especially in the last 5-10 overs. Andre Adams I would of thought could have suited for this, but his bowling isnt good enough.

 

[marc71178]

That is amazing. Dont they show cricket in England on free to air TV (domestic internationals ie Tests, Natwest Series)?

Tests are shown, but ODI's are on Sky.

If it weren't for the crown jewel ruling, the Tests would all be on there as well I reckon.

 

[Tim]

McCullum is by no means a strong man..infact from what I've seen of Clarke, he's probably bigger than McCullum. But against Pakistan & South Africa, McCullum demonstrated brilliantly his value at #8 by running quickly between the wickets & hitting the ball hard.

What im saying is that...to score quickly you don't have to hit boundaries. Instead you can pick 2 runs up when there should only be 1, put pressure on the field & force the mistakes. Maybe Clarke should be looking at playing that role.

 

[luckyeddie]

McCullum is by no means a strong man..infact from what I've seen of Clarke, he's probably bigger than McCullum. But against Pakistan & South Africa, McCullum demonstrated brilliantly his value at #8 by running quickly between the wickets & hitting the ball hard.

What im saying is that...to score quickly you don't have to hit boundaries. Instead you can pick 2 runs up when there should only be 1, put pressure on the field & force the mistakes. Maybe Clarke should be looking at playing that role.

I agree - there really ought to be a little more from Clarke with the bat. Bowling yesterday was useful - no-one seems to have a clue what he's going to do with the ball - he's got at least 3 different slower balls although he tends to use 'change-ups' a little too frequently for my liking.

 

[tooextracool]

He's still averaging in the mid 30's, not brilliant, but bear in mind that the last 2 series haven't been the highest of scoring series..

certainly not good enough from potentially the best batsman in the side. hes had 3 good innings in the last 11 test matches, and bear in mind that he has rarely got to 30s and 40s in the rest of the innings.

Also he's made 2 superb centuries in difficult conditions in the last 2 series.

hard to see how you could say that his century in antigua was in difficult conditions.

 

[Tim]

I think England are going through the phase that NZ went through 1 or 2 years back when they stacked the whole team with all-rounders & only 2 or 3 proper batsmen.

I think in the last 2 ODI Series, NZ have shown when you get the balance right & give each player specific roles (batting wise) it can really be a good ODI formula.
Infact really it was only last year in India when NZ had Chris Nevin, Lou Vincent, Stephen Fleming & not much else..but since then, thanks partly to Bracewell they've got the mix right.

Looking at the English line-up..i'd leave out Clarke in favour of a specialist batsman & use Collingwood as the slow-medium bowler...I think if you pick a batsman who could score 40 runs in a match, that's more valuable than a player who scores less than 10 runs & bowls 5 overs for 30 runs.
At least that way, the openers don't go out to bat having the burden of only having 1 more specialist batsman in the hut.
Infact when you add in that Vaughan the captain is one of only 3 specialist batsmen, thats a huge amount of pressure on his shoulders.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

hard to see how you could say that his century in antigua was in difficult conditions.

Agreed. All he had to do was ensure that his team batted for a day and a third, while he was on a pair and the bowlers bowling quite well. No pressure...

 

[tooextracool]

Yesterday we were a slow bowler short, not a quick!

but considering that the best slow bowler in the country happens to be ashley giles/robert croft its not much we can expect from the slower bowlers. i think if we had someone genuinely quick in the last odi we might just have been able to finish of the last few batsmen. i still dont think we've got a bowler whos good enough to demolish the tail quickly(like gough used to). theres too much of a sameness in this ODI attack at the moment.

Harmison cutting his pace is more to do with fatigue and the fact that in ODI's pace isn't as crucial.

his pace wasnt in the late 80s in the test series either...albeit he does need a break and i would have thought that he would have been rested for the entire ODI series-not like he would have missed out much either with the number of wash outs

 

[marc71178]

But against Pakistan & South Africa, McCullum demonstrated brilliantly his value at #8 by running quickly between the wickets & hitting the ball hard.

Which is all well and good, but that sort of innings would not have been possible at St Lucia, especially against the slower bowlers.

And if you hit the ball hard then it's a lot harder to get 2 then if you don't (in a strange kind of way)

 

[marc71178]

hard to see how you could say that his century in antigua was in difficult conditions.

So they didn't have a long time to bat and a huge deficit then?

 

[marc71178]

I think England are going through the phase that NZ went through 1 or 2 years back when they stacked the whole team with all-rounders & only 2 or 3 proper batsmen.

I guess it all depends on what you call an "all-rounder"

For me Collingwood is a specialist bat who can bowl a couple of overs.

Flintoff is a genuine all round option, and Read is fast establishing himself as a very useful player who has the potential to develop in One Day games at least, very quickly.

That only really leaves Clarke in the current line-up, and I've already given my opinion on his performances so far. I think had wickets fallen earlier, he wouldn't have been down so low in the order.

 

[marc71178]

but considering that the best slow bowler in the country happens to be ashley giles/robert croft its not much we can expect from the slower bowlers.

If Batty can pick up 2 and trouble them a bit, then we should expect a bowler along the lines of Giles to do similar.

i think if we had someone genuinely quick in the last odi we might just have been able to finish of the last few batsmen.

In spite of all the commentators suggesting to the contrary...

That wicket was crying out for bowlers who take the pace off the ball.

 

[Andre]

I think England are going through the phase that NZ went through 1 or 2 years back when they stacked the whole team with all-rounders & only 2 or 3 proper batsmen.

I think in the last 2 ODI Series, NZ have shown when you get the balance right & give each player specific roles (batting wise) it can really be a good ODI formula.
Infact really it was only last year in India when NZ had Chris Nevin, Lou Vincent, Stephen Fleming & not much else..but since then, thanks partly to Bracewell they've got the mix right.

Looking at the English line-up..i'd leave out Clarke in favour of a specialist batsman & use Collingwood as the slow-medium bowler...I think if you pick a batsman who could score 40 runs in a match, that's more valuable than a player who scores less than 10 runs & bowls 5 overs for 30 runs.
At least that way, the openers don't go out to bat having the burden of only having 1 more specialist batsman in the hut.
Infact when you add in that Vaughan the captain is one of only 3 specialist batsmen, thats a huge amount of pressure on his shoulders.

2 things - patriotism is nice, but please don't bring NZ into every thread. There is already enough of them.

BTW - they've won their last 2 ODI series. They got smashed in the 2 before away from home. They may have the balance right, but Australia still rule the roost. Oh, and their balance is ok...

 

[tooextracool]

In spite of all the commentators suggesting to the contrary...
That wicket was crying out for bowlers who take the pace off the ball.

yes but the slower bowlers werent quality and the only thing they could have done on that wicket was slow things down a bit. after the flyer that chanderpaul and powell had gotten them off to the only hope was for england to bowl them out.

 

[garage flower]

Excellent weekend's cricket after all the frustration.

Very impressed with Dwayne Bravo. Seems to be a shot-maker in a similar vein to Dwayne Smith, but with oodles more nous. A genuine all-round prospect; at least at 1-day level.

Still, can't deny Smith provided plenty of excitement, both with the bat and in the field. I think he's worth persevering with in the short game.

Not especially impressed with Bradshaw, though he did a steady enough job.

The big plusses for me - from the West Indies point of view - were the vast improvements in fielding and picking up singles. Sarwan and Shiv, who've been disgracefully sloppy in the field in recent times, were superb.

I think Powell missed a big chance this weekend. Wasted two great opportunities to make a big score and cement his place in the side as a specialist bat. Still, he was typically electric in the field (that Vaughan run out!) and bowled 2 great overs yesterday.

All in all, an encouraging weekend. Let's hope the weather holds up in Bim.

 

[biased indian]

the performance of england bowlers in the last 2 games are all due to heactic schedule!!!!!!!!!!!(as claimed by all)

when actully they ddint play for a whole week

 

[Langeveldt]

Wow.

That is amazing. Dont they show cricket in England on free to air TV (domestic internationals ie Tests, Natwest Series)?

Only in Summer...

The irony of it is, there is far cheaper, more comprehensive English cricket coverage in places like Riyadh and the Sultanate of Oman, than there is next door to the Grace Gates...
"And for all the youngsters watching" .. Oh sorry they cant can they!! Nice one ECB

Back to the series, the recent performances have been due to a ClarkeQuake of mutant proportions!!

Not content with getting out yesterday, he decided to take Chris Read with him... Its been like watching a lanky Inzamam doing the calling this series..
As for that Chanderpaul wicket.. Well the look on Chanders face said it all!! That is run machine Clarke's ticket for the 2007 WC methinks...
Sorry for the rant lol...