*Official* England in South Africa

[Nate]

I wish Swann was Australian. Love watching him bowl.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, but the times he doesn't score a ton seem to get looked at before all the important innings he has played.

 

[four_or_six]

It's not like Pietersen has never played a special innings, or Smith never played a bad one. Form is temporary and all that. There's not a lot between them but Pietersen is the better batsman. He's just had his worse year in Test cricket and emerged from it with an average of 47 (for the calendar year that is)

In 2009 he mainly played against WI, and in many of those matches you'd count the runs scored on a par with those scored against Bangladesh. To start with the pitches were the flattest ever, and then later on the WI couldn't give a flying **** about the matches.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

In 2009 he mainly played against WI, and in many of those matches you'd count the runs scored on a par with those scored against Bangladesh. To start with the pitches were the flattest ever, and then later on the WI couldn't give a flying **** about the matches.

I think Pietersen is at least on par with Smith, but you can't really argue with this ^.

 

[pasag]

I'd take Smith as well. KP's 30 this year, one wonders if he'll ever reach his potential (of being the best bat in the world).

 

[Prince EWS]

I actually think Pietersen's marginally better, but I certainly disagreed with the implication laid out earlier in the thread that they weren't comparable and that Pietersen was a class above entirely. You could argue he should be, I suppose, but he isn't. They're actually extremely similar; I find it hard to split them.

 

[GIMH]

In 2009 he mainly played against WI, and in many of those matches you'd count the runs scored on a par with those scored against Bangladesh. To start with the pitches were the flattest ever, and then later on the WI couldn't give a flying **** about the matches.

Yeah, but my point was it was his worst year and he still hardly disgraced himself. He got loads of stick for his Ashes performances but he still made a couple of starts on one leg.

He has scored runs pretty much wherever he has played for England, aside from here and Pakistan (he is unlikely to get a chance to put the latter right) and has scored a century against every team he has faced in Tests as far as I can remember. He has, year after year, been one of the most consistent batsmen in the world.

I agree with those who say he could be even better than he is but to listen to some you'd think he had Bradman potential with Ramprakash average. There is an argument for Smith being better but there's a strong one for KP being better too.

 

[four_or_six]

Yeah, but my point was it was his worst year and he still hardly disgraced himself. He got loads of stick for his Ashes performances but he still made a couple of starts on one leg.

He has scored runs pretty much wherever he has played for England, aside from here and Pakistan (he is unlikely to get a chance to put the latter right) and has scored a century against every team he has faced in Tests as far as I can remember. He has, year after year, been one of the most consistent batsmen in the world.

I agree with those who say he could be even better than he is but to listen to some you'd think he had Bradman potential with Ramprakash average. There is an argument for Smith being better but there's a strong one for KP being better too.

Yeah, all true enough.

For some reason, I just can't bring myself to get really behind him this last year or so. I don't know whether it was the captaincy debacle, the whole way he was during Stanford, the playing in the IPL despite being injured, not batting at three when we really needed someone to, the feeling that he hasn't made the runs he should. Meh, I dunno.

 

[GIMH]

In my humble opinion, the captaincy issue has affected him, and it was a shambles the way he was treated. From everything I have read since then, he was asked what he needed to help England win the Ashes, and responded by saying Peter Moores was not the man to help him do it. I don't think he handled himself well when it all got out, but he was hung out to dry by the ECB and hasn't looked quite himself in general since.

Alas, I think the right outcome in terms of the captaincy was reached, but at what cost?

As for him batting at three, I'm in two minds. In a way, if it would be the best for the team then yeah, he should do it. But would it be the best for the team? If he feels he can score more runs at four or five, then shouldn't that be where he bats, i.e. where is thinks he will score most runs?

Not aimed at you as I don't think it's the case in your case, but in this country I believe it is his accent that is the main reason for him not being appreciated like a man of his talent should be.

 

[four_or_six]

Not aimed at you as I don't think it's the case in your case, but in this country I believe it is his accent that is the main reason for him not being appreciated like a man of his talent should be.

It's partly accent and partly image, I think. It's not just his accent that sets him apart from someone like Freddie, for example.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, I guess. I've been pretty outspoken in his defence in the past, because he just says what he thinks instead of *****footing around like a Michael Owen. I love the guy, so I'm hardly objective, but for mine he gets a much harder time than he would if he was 100% English.

 

[Stapel]

So, has the pitch flattened out a fair bit? Or was it good batting or poor bowling? If both teams get out for 270-290 and the 3rd innings holds 312/2, a draw might not be such a funny idea.

South Africa's game to lose, but they do need some proper bowling on day 4 & 5.

 

[Prince EWS]

So, has the pitch flattened out a fair bit? Or was it good batting or poor bowling?

All of the above.

 

[Jarquis]

The Wisden Cricker had a big article on the differences betweek KP and Freddy this month actually.

 

[four_or_six]

The Wisden Cricker had a big article on the differences betweek KP and Freddy this month actually.

Interesting. Is it any good in general, I've never bought it before?

 

[Jarquis]

Interesting. Is it any good in general, I've never bought it before?

Yeah, I don't buy it regularly. Just I was travelling to London so bought that to read along with FFT.

 

[wpdavid]

Yes it's a very flat deck out there, especially if you don't take early wickets with the new ball. There has been a bit of reverse swing about, but both Smith and Amla countered it pretty well. The positive thing for England is that the pitch is playing so well, but a target of 400+ brings with it a fresh set of pressures.

The pitch was always going to be at its easiest on Days 2 & 3. By the time we bat again it's going to be the 2nd half of Day 4 'chasing' 550+ with a bunch of guys knackered after best part of 2 days in the field, facing a superior opening attack. I'll be astonished if the eventual margin of defeat is less than 250.

 

[wpdavid]

The Wisden Cricker had a big article on the differences betweek KP and Freddy this month actually.

What conclusions did they draw?

 

[Jarquis]

What conclusions did they draw?

I'll pick out some quotes and paraphrase here and there.
"Pietersen's devotion to excellence is the very attribute that alienates him from a fickle British cooper.
Apparently "throughout British history the underdog has trumped the genuine sportsman with a claim to greatness"
"The South African link will never allow him to become the Freddiesque man of the people he so craves to be"
Paul Burnham (founder of the Barmy Army "Flintoff is old school and England's fans can relate to that. Pietersen is probably yhe most misunderstood cricketer there is."Goes onto say Pietersen's confidence appears as arrogance but he's a friendly guy.
"KP would take a wine bar over a pub, he just enjoys that buzz and edge about being a top class sportsman.
"Wasn't brought up here so he still doesn't quite understand how things work and how people look upon celebraties"
"KP is considerably more guarfded with the media aftetr the Moores afair"
Then goes onto say nothing KP has done can rival Flintoff I.e turning up drunk for practice whilst captaining an Ashes tour. At least with KP it can be argued he acted with the team's best interest at heart in the Moores debacle.
"Perversely, though, the harder KP tries to ingratiate himself, the more the suspicions of his mostives grow whereas the more Flintoff strays from the straight and narrow, the more his stock appears to rise"
Freddie's willingness to hold his hands up and apologise is why we love him. For KP an apology is a sign of weakness, and as such is to be avoided at all cost.
"KP was furious at the way he was signled out for his shot at Cardiff - he wants to be loved but hasn't worked out how to achieve it"
KP "doesn't do banter well"
"As a team mate you see KP on the field but you don't see him around very much, he'll go out for dinner but keeps himself to himself, while Fred is willing to spend time with guys he knows when he runs into them" - Geraint Jones

There's more, need to do something now.

 

[Prince EWS]

I'll pick out some quotes and paraphrase here and there.
"Pietersen's devotion to excellence is the very attribute that alienates him from a fickle British cooper.
Apparently "throughout British history the underdog has trumped the genuine sportsman with a claim to greatness"
"The South African link will never allow him to become the Freddiesque man of the people he so craves to be"
Paul Burnham (founder of the Barmy Army "Flintoff is old school and England's fans can relate to that. Pietersen is probably yhe most misunderstood cricketer there is."Goes onto say Pietersen's confidence appears as arrogance but he's a friendly guy.
"KP would take a wine bar over a pub, he just enjoys that buzz and edge about being a top class sportsman.
"Wasn't brought up here so he still doesn't quite understand how things work and how people look upon celebraties"
"KP is considerably more guarfded with the media aftetr the Moores afair"
Then goes onto say nothing KP has done can rival Flintoff I.e turning up drunk for practice whilst captaining an Ashes tour. At least with KP it can be argued he acted with the team's best interest at heart in the Moores debacle.
"Perversely, though, the harder KP tries to ingratiate himself, the more the suspicions of his mostives grow whereas the more Flintoff strays from the straight and narrow, the more his stock appears to rise"
Freddie's willingness to hold his hands up and apologise is why we love him. For KP an apology is a sign of weakness, and as such is to be avoided at all cost.
"KP was furious at the way he was signled out for his shot at Cardiff - he wants to be loved but hasn't worked out how to achieve it"
KP "doesn't do banter well"
"As a team mate you see KP on the field but you don't see him around very much, he'll go out for dinner but keeps himself to himself, while Fred is willing to spend time with guys he knows when he runs into them" - Geraint Jones

There's more, need to do something now.

A lot of that stuff about KP looks extremely similar to an article Corrin wrote not long ago actually. CricInfo not the only source mooching off us.