***Official*** England in Pakistan

[Scaly piscine]

Whereas Harmison bowled like a god on the final morning? Hardly. (Although Giles was rubbish too, to be fair.) For all the talk of Vaughan's Brearleyesque captaincy, his sticking with those two instead of Jones was not the brightest thing we've ever seen. Like I said, I'll happily give Harmison credit if & when he bowls well, but he's been chucking pies for most of 2005, and he's got away with it because others have done the job and there aren't any viable alternatives for his place. Yet. Which could change if Plunkett, Tremlett or whoever comes through like Jones has in the last 12 months.

Giles had the conditions totally in his favour, Harmison didn't. As for 'getting away with it' go look at his figures and you'll see he's had one bad series in the past 2 years.

 

[wpdavid]

Giles had the conditions totally in his favour, Harmison didn't. As for 'getting away with it' go look at his figures and you'll see he's had one bad series in the past 2 years.

Depends on how you look at it. Ignoring Bang, I make it one good test out of his last 10. And I'm not really sure how you make 1 good test out of 5 against Aus a "good series", even if his final average of 32 wasn't a complete disaster. Maybe us soft southerners are used to higher standards.

As for conditions, we've been hearing for most of the last 12 months that conditions haven't been in Harmison's favour. Sorry, but that's life nowadays, and the good bowlers get on with it. Does your man really want to cut it, or would he be happier coasting with Durham and spending more time with his kids or at the Ashington Working Man's Club? I guess we'll find out over the next 12 months.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Depends on how you look at it. Ignoring Bang, I make it one good test out of his last 10. And I'm not really sure how you make 1 good test out of 5 against Aus a "good series", even if his final average of 32 wasn't a complete disaster. Maybe us soft southerners are used to higher standards.

As for conditions, we've been hearing for most of the last 12 months that conditions haven't been in Harmison's favour. Sorry, but that's life nowadays, and the good bowlers get on with it. Does your man really want to cut it, or would he be happier coasting with Durham and spending more time with his kids or at the Ashington Working Man's Club? I guess we'll find out over the next 12 months.

Hmm... now lets see which soft southerners bowled for England... ah yes Giles with his 57.80 average. Look at the Ashes as a whole... a bowling average of 32 with some massively important wickets on pitches that largely were among the most useless you could find for a bowler like Harmison against the toughest opposition he'll face for the foreseeable future. Not a great performance, but pretty decent. As for the utter bulls*** about him being happier coasting with Durham the least said the better.

 

[wpdavid]

Hmm... now lets see which soft southerners bowled for England... ah yes Giles with his 57.80 average. Look at the Ashes as a whole... a bowling average of 32 with some massively important wickets on pitches that largely were among the most useless you could find for a bowler like Harmison against the toughest opposition he'll face for the foreseeable future. Not a great performance, but pretty decent. As for the utter bulls*** about him being happier coasting with Durham the least said the better.

Really? I remember a lot of whining in SA about not wanting to be there. And the question was how badly he wants to cut it at the highest level. As I said, we'll see. If it really is bs, then I'll be delighted to be proved wrong, but I've seen precious little evidence to the contrary this year.

As for the soft southerners, my comment was about our expectations of test cricketers, not how well or badly Giles ( a southerner?) did. Try to keep up mate.

Anyway, I'm off. BFN.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Really? I remember a lot of whining in SA about not wanting to be there. And the question was how badly he wants to cut it at the highest level. As I said, we'll see. If it really is bs, then I'll be delighted to be proved wrong, but I've seen precious little evidence to the contrary this year.

As for the soft southerners, my comment was about our expectations of test cricketers, not how well or badly Giles ( a southerner?) did. Try to keep up mate.

Anyway, I'm off. BFN.

What 'evidence' did you expect to see or wanted to see?

 

[marc71178]

I would play Udal in the first team for Jones as Giles is an All rounder anyway

He's been called a few things in his time, but that's a first!

 

[marc71178]

Good to see the inevitable inclusion of 3 Durham players in the ODI and Test squads, more northerners and less southern ponces is the way to go if England want to be successful.

Because obviously they've been so unsuccessful in the recent past, haven't they.

 

[tooextracool]

well we are going to the sub-continent of potentially turning tracks & in the past India 2001 & SRI 2003 we went for the 2/2 split & it wasn't that tragic. I get the feeling that might be the case again because i do believe Harmy & Freddie (especially) with the new ball & can trouble the pakistani's, also once the conditions suit we know Gilo will be effective & probably even Udal.

we most certainly did not go in with the 2-2 split in india. craig white was always part of that attack and while he was completely past it with injury, he was still decent enough to keep one end tight and pose a threat.
in only 1 game in SL did we go in with 2 pace bowlers, and as was the case in that game, it put plenty of pressure on freddie who has enough responsibilities in the side already. not to mention that england were playing defensively throughout that series, something which clearly shouldnt be on their mind this time around. this along with the fact that udal and harmison(in the subcontinent) are largely unknown quantities, and therefore nothing can be expected from them at this stage.

 

[tooextracool]

No the 2nd Test went down to the wire because of Giles' poor display when virtually every other finger spinner on the planet would have been looking for a five-for in Australia's run chase.

the 2nd test went down to the wire because england bowled rubbish on the last day and simon jones didnt get to bowl a ball.

 

[tooextracool]

Actually, if Plunkett does do well, maybe he'll be replacing his county colleague in the England side by the next ashes series after all.

can someone explain to me why plunkett was selected when his figures in CC are so poor? especially when you consider that davies hiw own teammate has an almost god like record compared to him.

 

[marc71178]

I guess it's something to do with how he's actually bowled and the potential he's shown.

When was the last time a bowler with a CC average of the low 20's got called up and actually did well?

I still maintain that there's a way to get county batsmen out, and if that's a bowler can do, he'll struggle when he gets onto the Test stage (thinking of the recent 1 or 2 cap players - Saggers, Ali, Kirtley etc.)

 

[wpdavid]

can someone explain to me why plunkett was selected when his figures in CC are so poor? especially when you consider that davies hiw own teammate has an almost god like record compared to him.

A couple of things, I suppose. Davies' record is extraordinary, but he was injured for the 2nd half of the season and might still not be fit. Also, it's a question of pace, and whether Davies' medium pacers would count for much in Pakistan.

Beyond that, as Marc says, I suspect it's down to potential beyond his achievements to date. Given the success of Simon Jones and, for a while, Harmison, you can see where they're coming from. Maybe it also says something about the lack of alternatives.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Davies is frequently injured, he hardly ever plays 2 consecutive CC games and he's just turned 25. Plunkett is only 20 and the fact that he can bat a bit is a big positive as well I think - especially when you've got Hoggard and Harmison in your team. Another positive factor for all the Durham players in the squad (well except Harmison I suppose) is they've probably batted in the nets against Shoaib.

 

[jlo33692]

As I said, if he scores - you will put it down to his weakness not being exposed and when he gets out it is due to his weakness.

So you and Marc have a right to your opinions but sorry I dont buy it from what I have seen of Hayden.

Yeah well said Pratyush

 

[marc71178]

Davies is frequently injured, he hardly ever plays 2 consecutive CC games and he's just turned 25. Plunkett is only 20 and the fact that he can bat a bit is a big positive as well I think - especially when you've got Hoggard and Harmison in your team.

Hoggard and Harmison both do the job asked of them as well as you'd expect.

Hoggard in particular has really impressed with the effort he's put into his batting

 

[tooextracool]

I guess it's something to do with how he's actually bowled and the potential he's shown.

When was the last time a bowler with a CC average of the low 20's got called up and actually did well?

I still maintain that there's a way to get county batsmen out, and if that's a bowler can do, he'll struggle when he gets onto the Test stage (thinking of the recent 1 or 2 cap players - Saggers, Ali, Kirtley etc.)

there havent been many bowlers who've played intl cricket and averaged in the low 20s in FC cricket. i've never watched either of the 2 bowl, but i find it almost inconceivable that 2 bowlers can bowl in the same conditions with one having significantly better bowling figures than the other and yet the other having more potential. i'd expect that the conditions on which davies played on probably assisted him a fair bit, but then for plunkett to come out averaging 30 in the same conditions is just very very ordinary.

 

[marc71178]

Low 20s was maybe an exaggeration, but I was talking about the ones who consistently get the better averages in CC.

As for the Plunkett - Davies comparison, IIRC they're completely different types of bowlers.

 

[shaka]

Vaughan has decided to make huge comments about his Aussie beating England team players (Pieterson, Flintoff, and Harmison). Interested as to the reason for saying these comments at this time. For those who don't know, his comments were:
Harmison - fears he may only last 3 more years of international cricket
Flintoff - Partying may not make him a replacement option for Vaughan when Vaughan retires
Pieterson - don't let fame take over.

 

[wpdavid]

Vaughan has decided to make huge comments about his Aussie beating England team players (Pieterson, Flintoff, and Harmison). Interested as to the reason for saying these comments at this time. For those who don't know, his comments were:
Harmison - fears he may only last 3 more years of international cricket
Flintoff - Partying may not make him a replacement option for Vaughan when Vaughan retires
Pieterson - don't let fame take over.

Where can we find the interview?
I'm not sure that Fed is likely to replace Vaughan as skipper anyway, given the amount he already contrinutes to the side. Strauss is the likelier bet IMHO.

 

[shaka]

Pieterson

Harmison

Flintoff