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***Official*** England in New Zealand 2018

Cabinet96

Hall of Fame Member
Trouble is, players like Moeen and Woakes contribute a bit with the bat every now and again, even though they're struggling to pull their weight in their main discipline. So it's a bit harder to drop them. TBF to Moeen, he was Man of the Series at home against a very good SA side, but has had a dreadful run since then.
They're both more than good enough at home. But both of their disciplines are much weaker away. Classic case of players who are good in two disciplines at some level, where they're amazing players, and not good enough in either at another, where they're then pretty useless, and at the moment half of the tests they play are the wrong side of that divide.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
They're both more than good enough at home. But both of their disciplines are much weaker away. Classic case of players who are good in two disciplines at some level, where they're amazing players, and not good enough in either at another, where they're then pretty useless, and at the moment half of the tests they play are the wrong side of that divide.
Yeah. That is the reason why you can't blame selectors for sticking by them for so long.

But now, things do have to change. A new direction with new ideas with new team balance.

I know it is important to win home games but you have to decide when your aims of being the best in the world have to take over and you need to take more risks.

I hope the new talent identification can find adaptable batsmen. They may not be piling runs but you know they can grow their game spending time in international cricket. I'm looking at guys like Hameed, Gubbins, Clarke, Lawrence, Livingstone with the bat for example. Watch them and see what their strengths and weaknesses are and make judgements calls if they can step up or not. Same for the bowling.
 

srbhkshk

International Captain
While the issues with the English team have been well documented by some posters - I think their problems aren't as big as it might look right now. They had two 5 match tours of the two toughest countries to defeat at home and I dare say most countries would return with pretty much similar results if they were to play 10 test matches against India and Australia in their dens, then promptly ran into Boult in some decent bowling conditions after having played on roads for what seemed like an eternity.
 

Larwood's_boots

U19 Debutant
They're both more than good enough at home.
Has anyone ever figured out why rotation, so common to other sports, is seen as so unthinkable in cricket. Moeen doesn’t travel so switch him out for someone else in Australia who might be more suited, how did this become the ultimate taboo?
 

The Hutt Rec

International Vice-Captain
Sorta overlooked that that was a bloody impressive effort to pull off a win inside three and a bit days, without panicking because of the time lost due to weather. What should have been a pretty easy victory became a battle of nerves and composure.

Even if the first innings of 58 makes it seem like it was easy, it was far from it.
 

LegionOfBrad

International Debutant
Has anyone ever figured out why rotation, so common to other sports, is seen as so unthinkable in cricket. Moeen doesn’t travel so switch him out for someone else in Australia who might be more suited, how did this become the ultimate taboo?
In the selectors mind the horses for courses approach and the constant swapping of players goes back to the bad old days of the 80s and 90s so they stick with players for too long now.

Question for anyone who watches more county cricket than me. Do we have any real speedsters out there apart from Archer/Wood? Obviously it's not all about speed but we're begging for variety.
 

LegionOfBrad

International Debutant
While the issues with the English team have been well documented by some posters - I think their problems aren't as big as it might look right now. They had two 5 match tours of the two toughest countries to defeat at home and I dare say most countries would return with pretty much similar results if they were to play 10 test matches against India and Australia in their dens, then promptly ran into Boult in some decent bowling conditions after having played on roads for what seemed like an eternity.
We'll most likely win both series handily this summer. With TRJ and Jimmy taking hatfulls. I'm not sure it will solve much though.
 

BeeGee

International Captain
England have got their problems, obviously, but this looked a bloody good New Zealand team from where I was sitting
Yeah, it's just a fluke at the moment that we happen to have four world class players all playing at the same time. In the past we were lucky to have just one.
 
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wellAlbidarned

International Coach
Yeah, it's just a fluke at the moment that we happen to have four world class players all playing at the same time. In the past we were lucky to have just one.
Choice: Williamson, Taylor, Boult, Wags

Solid: Watling, Latham, Southee, Nicholls, CDG

Not sure yet: Tastle, Jeet

No passengers and some genuine NZ greats.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Choice: Williamson, Taylor, Boult, Wags

Solid: Watling, Latham, Southee, Nicholls, CDG

Not sure yet: Tastle, Jeet

No passengers and some genuine NZ greats.
I'd recommend not being sure about CDG honestly. I don't think he'll still be in the team in a few years time. I reckon he fails the Andrew Ellis test.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
I'd recommend not being sure about CDG honestly. I don't think he'll still be in the team in a few years time. I reckon he fails the Andrew Ellis test.
Yup, CdG isn't a great option long term and his presence in the team throws out the balance of the side imo. I don't think he's really a good enough batsman to succeed as a test no. 7, though I concede he's been fine in that role so far. The problem is his presence forces us to pick a second all-rounder in the spin-bowling roll, which means we have to probably weaken the bowling attack to accommodate his presence (no disrespect to Santner and Astle who've also done fine in recent times).

And his bowling is only really useful on real nippy wickets. It was an interesting and effective strategy getting him to open the bowling with Southee/Henry last season, but outside of that window where the ball is nipping around he's really too limited as a bowler to offer much to the side. A good horses for courses selection against touring sub-continent sides, but I think he probably shouldn't make the team for the UAE tour later in the year.
 

The Hutt Rec

International Vice-Captain
Yup, CdG isn't a great option long term and his presence in the team throws out the balance of the side imo. I don't think he's really a good enough batsman to succeed as a test no. 7, though I concede he's been fine in that role so far. The problem is his presence forces us to pick a second all-rounder in the spin-bowling roll, which means we have to probably weaken the bowling attack to accommodate his presence (no disrespect to Santner and Astle who've also done fine in recent times).

And his bowling is only really useful on real nippy wickets. It was an interesting and effective strategy getting him to open the bowling with Southee/Henry last season, but outside of that window where the ball is nipping around he's really too limited as a bowler to offer much to the side. A good horses for courses selection against touring sub-continent sides, but I think he probably shouldn't make the team for the UAE tour later in the year.
Who would you replace him with? A similar type player, or a bowler?

I think his type of player does fit the team balance quite well, but his batting and bowling is below where it needs to be. Not really sure there’s a good replacement though ... although we’ll be playing two spinners in the UAE, so that will be the answer over there, at least.
 

Pothas

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
They're both more than good enough at home. But both of their disciplines are much weaker away. Classic case of players who are good in two disciplines at some level, where they're amazing players, and not good enough in either at another, where they're then pretty useless, and at the moment half of the tests they play are the wrong side of that divide.
Woakes is just one summer at home though and he really needs to justify his place with the ball alone, always thought he should make more serious runs than he does but his role in the sides does not really allow that anyway. Moeen for sure though, he is pretty great at home but just contributes nothing away, makes it really hard to know what to do with him, we all love him but it is probably time we did look at Leach.
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
I agree on De Grandhomme - when he was brought into the side I really wanted him to bat 6 because batting 6 and bowling part-time was the only 'real' role that existed in the test side for someone like him. Since his bowling was so effective at home last season and because Watling is a good batsman, I then came around to the idea that De Grandhomme batting at 7 was acceptable, and he's demonstrated a couple of times how good he is at hitting quick runs to set up a declaration.

That's not a full-time job though - if he's going to stay in the team then he simply has to score some runs in more difficult match situations and more difficult batting conditions (i.e. away from home). He has to be a batsman first and bowler second imo. Is he good enough to do that? Not sure.

It's a very similar problem to his ODI role - he's done well with the bat a few times where he's arrived at the crease with the match set up for his default style of aggressive play. However he's contributed nothing (and recently been particularly clueless about it) when the situation demanded something different.

Who would push him for his spot might be an interesting discussion if we had any test cricket in the calendar any time soon :/
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Who would you replace him with? A similar type player, or a bowler?

I think his type of player does fit the team balance quite well, but his batting and bowling is below where it needs to be. Not really sure there’s a good replacement though ... although we’ll be playing two spinners in the UAE, so that will be the answer over there, at least.
Definitely not a bowler - we've got plenty of bowling. Southee, Wagner and Boult are probably the best pace trio NZ has ever had. I'd almost be prepared to say a specialist bat at 6 would be fine, but ideally we'd have someone to play the role that Jimmy Neesham did so effectively for the first 18 months of his career: a batting all-rounder, good enough to justify being in the team on his batting alone, but who can also bowl 10 overs a day when required and pick up the occasional wicket. It's a shame that Munro seems to have given up on tests, as he's definitely the type of player that we're looking for to bat 6, smash runs and help the team out with some wobblers every now and then.
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Moeen seems like someone who has completely lost his mojo and just needs to go home and lick his wounds. Occasionally a player is playing so badly that it's almost a favour to drop them. Moeen seems like he's in that spot right now - give him time and he'll probably come back stronger next season.

England's bowling certainly is samey and will look awful when Anderson retires, unless a new strike bowler appears from somewhere. That said I wouldn't discard Woakes quite yet - to me he looks no worse than Overton, Ball or Curran, but can bat. Roland-Jones also seems a similar style of bowler. Woakes has also demonstrated he's quite smart in the way he's turned himself into an effective ODI bowler. Perhaps he can do better in tests with more focus on that discipline. He's not the missing strike bowler England need, but neither are any of the above imo.
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
I wonder how much fatigue comes into it. Not just having completed an Ashes tour, but playing 50000 tests a year probably doesn't help your mainstays like Broad and Anderson.
 

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