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*Official* England in India 2023/24 #CryMoreTour

OverratedSanity

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It's all but forgotten now but they could have been shot out for about 120 on the very first day of the series but for his hundred getting them to a competitive score. The new Perth stadium seems so obviously slanted towards Aus that it's fair to say that even that very weak Aus side still starts favourites there if Adelaide goes Aus's way and from there, the rain at Sydney decides
That Adelaide performance from the 2019 tour doesnt get enough credit. He followed up that first innings hundred with a vital 70 odd in the second innings too.

He was great in the 2021 tour too, but I'd say Pant or Ashwin were slightly more important.
 

Xix2565

International Regular
You understand the meaning of the phrase "difference between the sides", yes? It's not "he was the only contributor on the team", or "no one else mattered", or "one man army". It's "he made the most consistently decisive contributions" and "without those contributions the result would have been very different" and - this is the kicker which is what makes this conversation relevant in the first place - "those are the most difficult contributions to replace".
I understand that you're not interested in discussing the impact of others involved in that series, which is fair. Pujara did a great job with his bat, sucks that he's basically out of the Test scene now.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
That Adelaide performance from the 2019 tour doesnt get enough credit. He followed up that first innings hundred with a vital 70 odd in the second innings too.

He was great in the 2021 tour too, but I'd say Pant or Ashwin were slightly more important.
Pant was definitely more important but honestly I'd put Rahane at the top. India pick a worse leader who doesn't keep the team focussed and together as well as he did with all the **** going on around and within the team and, well, plenty of sides have suffered less setbacks and still collapsed mentally by the end of the tour. Plus that innings at Melbourne was absolutely vital for both team morale and, like, in the situation of the game itself.

It's interesting how those two - Pujara and Rahane - were already deep into their slump periods by then and were quite rightly pilloried on here through 2022 onwards, but through their mental strength more than anything else still fashioned hugely influential contributions to that series. It'll be interesting to see what their successors can do in that mold - I'm thinking especially here of the physical courage Pujara showed in that series, he got hit a lot.
 

Xix2565

International Regular
Hopefully we get pitches where people can score runs without needing to jerk around too much. The Indian batters need a few more statpadded hundreds, especially Ashwin, Jadeja and Axar.
 

OverratedSanity

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It is a real shame how much he declined. Was a massive asset at his peak not only on australiam tours but also at home on some real rank turners. Was also living proof of how valuable crease occupation could be which was always satisfying to watch unfold series after series where he'd tuktuk us to wins when the commentators were waaahhing about his strike rate.
 

OverratedSanity

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Pant was definitely more important but honestly I'd put Rahane at the top. India pick a worse leader who doesn't keep the team focussed and together as well as he did with all the **** going on around and within the team and, well, plenty of sides have suffered less setbacks and still collapsed mentally by the end of the tour. Plus that innings at Melbourne was absolutely vital for both team morale and, like, in the situation of the game itself.

It's interesting how those two - Pujara and Rahane - were already deep into their slump periods by then and were quite rightly pilloried on here through 2022 onwards, but through their mental strength more than anything else still fashioned hugely influential contributions to that series. It'll be interesting to see what their successors can do in that mold - I'm thinking especially here of the physical courage Pujara showed in that series, he got hit a lot.
Eh I love Rahanes work but that's a stretch. Ashwin tied Smith down for two tests and played a match saving innings with an injured back in the third. Jadeja was terrific too.

None of the Pujara and Rahane replacements have been that great tbh. Gill and Iyer both seem soft as **** in addition to having serious technical flaws. I mean, Pujara had them too but wasn't piss weak like these two seem to be.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Eh I love Rahanes work but that's a stretch. Ashwin tied Smith down for two tests and played a match saving innings with an injured back in the third. Jadeja was terrific too.

None of the Pujara and Rahane replacements have been that great tbh. Gill and Iyer both seem soft as **** in addition to having serious technical flaws. I mean, Pujara had them too but wasn't piss weak like these two seem to be.
TBF I probably overrate the importance of leadership to the point of breaking reason the most out of anyone on this forum so I'll happily sit in the minority there.

It is a real shame how much he declined. Was a massive asset at his peak not only on australiam tours but also at home on some real rank turners. Was also living proof of how valuable crease occupation could be which was always satisfying to watch unfold series after series where he'd tuktuk us to wins when the commentators were waaahhing about his strike rate.
It sounds crazy because the numbers just aren't there but I honestly think India should still consider him when time comes. Yeah he might not score any and Gill, Iyer etc are the future but does anyone see those two standing there for two hours and just taking bouncer after bouncer on the chest and shoulder and forearm and not reacting to it because hey at least they can't get him out that way if he just takes it? Because I can't.
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I'm thinking especially here of the physical courage Pujara showed in that series, he got hit a lot.
Ironically I think the constant bowling of short balls at him all seres was actually counterproductive for us, especially on the slow pitches at Sydney and Brisbane. Of the innings I saw he never really looked like actually getting out to one, even when he was getting hit.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Ironically I think the constant bowling of short balls at him all seres was actually counterproductive for us.
I agree but only because he made it so. A softer batsman with a bigger ego would have played some dumbass hook shot and panned it to fine leg after three overs.
 

Nintendo

Cricketer Of The Year
Pant was definitely more important but honestly I'd put Rahane at the top. India pick a worse leader who doesn't keep the team focussed and together as well as he did with all the **** going on around and within the team and, well, plenty of sides have suffered less setbacks and still collapsed mentally by the end of the tour. Plus that innings at Melbourne was absolutely vital for both team morale and, like, in the situation of the game itself.

It's interesting how those two - Pujara and Rahane - were already deep into their slump periods by then and were quite rightly pilloried on here through 2022 onwards, but through their mental strength more than anything else still fashioned hugely influential contributions to that series. It'll be interesting to see what their successors can do in that mold - I'm thinking especially here of the physical courage Pujara showed in that series, he got hit a lot.
That entire series still feels like a fever dream on both ends. Every game in the series see-sawed a million times and after the first test india just kept finding ways no matter what happened.
 

Chin Music

State Vice-Captain
I think that is the one area where we can be vaguely competitive, this is not a vintage Indian batting line up. Jaiswal is young, Gill keeps flattering to deceive, Iyer probably gets dropped. A lot depends on the established bats, although I suspect/expect Kohli will have a good series. But If Bazball does come off on a flattish surface then it could cause pressure.
As you may recall, I managed to get into terrible arguments with two posters on 247, the irascible Sir Virgs and Sanskritsimon, in both instances as I had the temerity to criticise Leach (and Bess) for bowling poorly in one of the Sri Lanka tests that preceded the India series, and both were bowling very erratic line and lengths which would have been unacceptable for an ordinary county finger spinner. It was one occasion when I managed to wind up posters, despite not actually intending to do so, it is just that you had someone who was hilariously protective of his favourites and another who felt he had to defend a spinner no matter what!

Anyway, Leach had clearly improved since that time, although that is because he's can now bowl harder overs without getting smacked too badly when there isn't necessarily too much help for him and still contribute in terms of not getting whacked for a lot of runs so much and even if taking some treatment he's become cannier in picking up the odd wicket when the batter over-commits. He was too predictable in pace, length and flight. He did well enough on very helpful surfaces from that India tour and further back in his career s but it was more that he was saved for situations that really helped slow bowlers rather than any outstanding craft.

It is a tough gig for him to bowl in India though, having not played a proper game since injury and he will be expected to bowl 25 overs plus per day. As big an issue is how Rehan goes. He might come into the game a reasonable amount if there is reasonable help in the pitch, but I suspect canny Indian batting will eat him alive if he isn't really on it. A real sink or swim moment. He had little to lose in Karachi with the series dead on his debut. There is likely to be a lot more on the line in India in comparison.
 

Molehill

Cricketer Of The Year
As you may recall, I managed to get into terrible arguments with two posters on 247, the irascible Sir Virgs and Sanskritsimon, in both instances as I had the temerity to criticise Leach (and Bess) for bowling poorly in one of the Sri Lanka tests that preceded the India series, and both were bowling very erratic line and lengths which would have been unacceptable for an ordinary county finger spinner. It was one occasion when I managed to wind up posters, despite not actually intending to do so, it is just that you had someone who was hilariously protective of his favourites and another who felt he had to defend a spinner no matter what!

Anyway, Leach had clearly improved since that time, although that is because he's can now bowl harder overs without getting smacked too badly when there isn't necessarily too much help for him and still contribute in terms of not getting whacked for a lot of runs so much and even if taking some treatment he's become cannier in picking up the odd wicket when the batter over-commits. He was too predictable in pace, length and flight. He did well enough on very helpful surfaces from that India tour and further back in his career s but it was more that he was saved for situations that really helped slow bowlers rather than any outstanding craft.

It is a tough gig for him to bowl in India though, having not played a proper game since injury and he will be expected to bowl 25 overs plus per day. As big an issue is how Rehan goes. He might come into the game a reasonable amount if there is reasonable help in the pitch, but I suspect canny Indian batting will eat him alive if he isn't really on it. A real sink or swim moment. He had little to lose in Karachi with the series dead on his debut. There is likely to be a lot more on the line in India in comparison.
Those two were funny. Virgs simply couldn't think rationally when anything Somerset related was involved. I remember winding him up in the Bob Willis Final when I said the toss had little impact on the game. I mean of course it did, but he lost the plot over it. And then he just disappeared, although he was more precious about Pet and Brexit. Funnily enough, it was me that 'knighted' him about 20 years ago on the old TMS Boards. Simon was just obsessed by spinners (unhealthily so).

I fear for Rehan on this tour. I suspect he'll bowl at least one long hop each over and get eaten alive. In fact, I'm not convinced he'll survive past the 3rd Test, Hope I'm wrong...
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Bess will be immortalised in my mind for taking possibly the grossest 5 wicket haul I've ever seen in that Sri Lanka series. A motley selection of bizarre reverse sweeps for no discernible reason, long hops panned to fielders and a complete disconnect between any skill required on the bowler's behalf and wickets falling every ten balls or so.
 

Chin Music

State Vice-Captain
Those two were funny. Virgs simply couldn't think rationally when anything Somerset related was involved. I remember winding him up in the Bob Willis Final when I said the toss had little impact on the game. I mean of course it did, but he lost the plot over it. And then he just disappeared, although he was more precious about Pet and Brexit. Funnily enough, it was me that 'knighted' him about 20 years ago on the old TMS Boards. Simon was just obsessed by spinners (unhealthily so).

I fear for Rehan on this tour. I suspect he'll bowl at least one long hop each over and get eaten alive. In fact, I'm not convinced he'll survive past the 3rd Test, Hope I'm wrong...
Ha, yes! I remember the toss argument, it killed him. He had a whole load of hobby horses though that weren't always Somerset related but yep, the BWT was a cracker.

I think I mentioned more seriously on one of the threads at some point last year that it is so difficult to know where many spinners stand in county cricket when so much of the championship is played at the fag end of the normal season. That was stating the obvious though. Yes, I know that it is weird that Dawson doesn't get a call-up but I'm not sure two pretty identical spinners in him and Leach playing in the same game is a great idea.

I have no great confidence in Rehan doing well but he's done surprisingly well in all 3 forms of the game for England so far. However, this is a massive step up in skill execution.
 

Molehill

Cricketer Of The Year
Bess will be immortalised in my mind for taking possibly the grossest 5 wicket haul I've ever seen in that Sri Lanka series. A motley selection of bizarre reverse sweeps for no discernible reason, long hops panned to fielders and a complete disconnect between any skill required on the bowler's behalf and wickets falling every ten balls or so.
Yeah, and we all knew that, except for our friend from Somerset, who wouldn't hear a word said against him. There was another poster there who had an irrational hatred of Moeen (there were definitely racist undertones), I think he even used the Bess 5fer as a means of knocking Moeen.
 

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