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*Official* England in Bangladesh Thread

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
luckyeddie said:
I think the longest spell by an English bowler in the game (not interrupted by an interval or close of play) is probably Clarke - not sure of that.
For me, Vaughan pushed the seamers far, far too hard. He bowled Harmison, Hoggard and Clarke in a ridiculously long spell each. For crying out loud, they might have got some high fitness levels going, but it's still 30 deg-c most of the time. Captains are entitled to expect bowlers to bowl through the comfort barrier once in a while. Vaughan had himself (that he hasn't bowled himself a single over this game is, for me, a terrible misjudgement), Butcher and even Trescothick if he's fit yet. He could have caused any of them serious problems. I don't think anyone's likely to collapse or anything like Gillespie did after the India Tests in 2000\01, but we've got 4 more Tests in less than 2 months coming-up. He's playing a dangerous game.
For me, Vaughan's captaincy has been very poor in his career so far. Only 5 games, fair enough, but if it keeps going like this I'll be calling for his head by the end of this winter's leg. You can't judge a captain solely on results, and I don't think he did much in the South Africa series except made the right decision upon winning the toss at Trent Bridge.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
luckyeddie said:
I too thought that his 'brief' knock today showed more than a little character - I'm sure that he was under instructions to 'stay there, play for Thorpe' and on reflection, his dismissal was just a misjudgment. The wicket is turning an awful lot (at least from Haque jr.) and he was attempting to cover his stumps.

Who would you have us pick on instead? (note : not Harmison any more than usual anyway)
Hmm...
I've been told off for picking-on most players in my cricket-sage career.
However, when watching Blessing Mahwire and hearing some of the criticism of him, I have felt guilt of the highest kind.
The poor guy's just nowhere near Test standard and he's been picked primarily because his skin is a certain colour. And to criticise him, when it is unlikely he will be doing anything but his best, is plain barbary (is that a word?). The poor guy must be feeling absolutely awful, and it's not his fault at all. I have resolved to try and direct my criticism at solely those who I believe responsible for the selection - mainly, in the case of England, the press. The selectors don't often pick someone who hasn't been called for by press or public first. For me, Graveney and co. and the players do as good a job as they can.
Anyway, I would have everyone pick on those who support Collingwood, ironically. In the opinion of almost all, he's going to be a Test standard player. How silly, methinks. Anyone noticed his First-Class average? 32 is not something that suggests a Test player.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Re spin:
I am very much in agreement with eddie on the notion that teams should play to their strengths. There is just no point in England picking a spinner most of the time because they have 10 or 11 seamers who could do a better job most of the time.
However, IMO Croft and Giles are both Test standard bowlers on wickets like this. Giles' poor form here has muddied the waters still further. I blame the meddling around with his run - why would anyone want to do that? What was there to be gained? Giles has bowled well on the subcontinent before, with the action he was bowling with last summer.
Giles' problems this Test have most often been drifting onto the leg-stump when bowling round-the-wicket. In that his angle of run has been changed, I would say this is to blame for it.
On the rare occasion Giles managed to hit a line of off-stump or middle, he looked quite a threat. He didn't turn every ball, but he turned enough to suggest that if he kept pitching it there he'd be a threat.
If nothing else, Giles has usually been accurate. When he loses his accuracy, he loses his potency.
Gareth Batty has a good domestic record, but I haven't seen anything in his bowling here to suggest he's a Test standard bowler. Exactly the same as Dawson. Even on wickets like these.
The great need for England is to try and develop wristspinners, those who can turn the ball on any surface.
In England, as I say above, the typical surfaces at the Test grounds simply do not, for me, exonerate the inclusion of a fingerspinner. Croft and Giles are England's best spinners IMO, and both good Test bowlers on wickets typical to the subcontient or West Indies. However, their Test records in England speak for themselves.
So, if England want a spinner they are going to pick on any wickets, they need a wristspinner. The only wristspinner to play regularly for England recently has been Ian Salisbury. His inconsistency at domestic level (brilliant in 1999 and 2000, not had a good season since) means his poor Test record comes as little surprise.
The emergance of Warne, Murali (albeit he's a bit of an exception with his double-jointed wrist), Mushtaq, Kaneria and to an extent Anil Kumble has shown that the age-old stereotype that you can't bowl wristspin without dragging it down every other over (unless your name was Benaud, O'Reilly, Grimmett or Abdul Qadir) is quite wrong. Now we just need someone to have the commitment and the skill to bowl wristspin and want and be able to play for England.
The selection of fingerspinners is, for me, largely a waste of a place for England. This winter is a bit of an exception, but Giles' form this Test has been worrying considering his bowling in Lahore, Faisalabad, Karachi, Columbo and Motera. Unless he can get it back quick-sharp I don't think he should ever play for England again.
 

Neil Pickup

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Richard said:
Anyway, I would have everyone pick on those who support Collingwood, ironically. In the opinion of almost all, he's going to be a Test standard player. How silly, methinks. Anyone noticed his First-Class average? 32 is not something that suggests a Test player.
OK, the 100 vs Sri Lanka in the VB Series and the 64* against Pakistan in the World Cup. Both showed the temperament and ability to cope with international class bowling.

And I really don't care that much about the FC averages when I think of Vaughan and Trescothick.

Trescothick still averages just 34.65 in FC and when you discount Tests, 31.75, and Vaughan 38.06 and 36.23.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Richard said:

Anyway, I would have everyone pick on those who support Collingwood, ironically. In the opinion of almost all, he's going to be a Test standard player. How silly, methinks. Anyone noticed his First-Class average? 32 is not something that suggests a Test player.
The same Collingwood who doesn't really average that great in List A Limited Overs (average 30) but is England best One Day batsman?

32 seems to me to around the figure both Trescothick and Vaughan had on entering Test Cricket (even now they average "only" 34 and 38 in FC Cricket (including Tests))

Yet they average in the high 40's in Test Cricket.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
You cannot be serious about Collingwood being England's best ODI batsman...he only came good in the VB Series last year...and even then he hasn't really had a chance to prove whether that was just a one off or not.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
Bangladesh all out for 255 which gave them a 163 run lead...they lost too many batsmen yesterday for them to be able to mount a serious challenge against England.

Maybe if Bangladesh restrict England to 40/3 they could pull off a miracle, but I seriously doubt it.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
I rate Collingwood as a more than useful one-day player, but to call him as England's best ODI batsman is stretching the point just a little far.

Looking good for England now - it was important that they blew the tail away and the quicks did that all right - just 10 runs added. Last night, Harmison and Hoggard looked completely worn out. Amazing what a night's kip can do.

Third wicket just gone down. The ICC really must stop allowing Asoka Da Silva to stand in tests. He's now transmitted awfuldecisionitis to Aleem Dar. Hussain adjudged leg before - the ball probably wouldn't have hit another set of three.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
Oh come on Eddie!! whats wrong with trying to keep Bangladesh interested in the game? lol.
 

Mr. P

International Vice-Captain
Well, England win by 7 wickets. Once again however, Bangladesh didnt get slaughtered. I have a feeling...only a couple of tests away...
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
They are at least now getting into positions where they have a chance to go on and win - getting more and more competitive.

With Regards Collingwood - I was thinking how he's replaced Thorpe in that role of the one who nudges the ball about, and not many people have noticed the transition.
 

JohnnyA

U19 12th Man
Who won MoM award? Harmison, Vaughn or Trescothick?

Harmison padded his stats nicely didn't he: 9 wickets for just 89, and a nice economy rate into the bargain.

I think he has all the qualities to become world class. If England can keep their young fast bowlers healthy, and rotate them wisely (i.e. unlike Shaun Pollock), they could be a dominant force in world cricket very very soon.

If they don't, with all the cricket played today, they'll be worn out in no time. Pollock is only about 30 or 31. His velocity has dropped about 5 mph in such a short period of time. In reality, he should be in his prime now. This is an example of what wil happen if England do not rest and rotate their fast men ... especially for back to back games.
 

Craig

World Traveller
luckyeddie said:
Bangladesh, top end of the Bay of Bengal. Formerly East Pakistan.
Northern hemisphere, rainy season is regarded as June to September although convection storms occur frequently. 23 degrees North (compare with London 51 degrees North, Kingston 18 degrees North, Johannesburg 26 degrees South).

It certainly gets dark at around the time stated - not a mistake by the Sky Sports team.

So, there you have it. Either never play there, go now or go in March.
Thank you David Attenbrough :lol: :lol: :lol: :P
 

Craig

World Traveller
marc71178 said:
They are at least now getting into positions where they have a chance to go on and win - getting more and more competitive.

With Regards Collingwood - I was thinking how he's replaced Thorpe in that role of the one who nudges the ball about, and not many people have noticed the transition.
And in that series Mr Benaud said Collingwood "has a role in the English Test team".

He is also England's best fielder, but as their best batsmen, I believe that title goes to ME Trescothick.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Craig said:
He is also England's best fielder, but as their best batsmen, I believe that title goes to ME Trescothick.
For some reason I forgot the openers!

As far as best One Day Batsman, unfortunately he retired after the World Cup.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Neil Pickup said:
OK, the 100 vs Sri Lanka in the VB Series and the 64* against Pakistan in the World Cup. Both showed the temperament and ability to cope with international class bowling.

And I really don't care that much about the FC averages when I think of Vaughan and Trescothick.

Trescothick still averages just 34.65 in FC and when you discount Tests, 31.75, and Vaughan 38.06 and 36.23.
And when I think of these I notice that they are anomalies in the general pattern including recently: Butcher, Atherton, Hussain, Stewart, Thorpe and Crawley. All have good Test records and even better FC ones.
The 100 at The WACA should have been 11 and no more, and the 64* was succeeded by two failures. It showed the ability to cope with one-day-international bowling but First-Class and one-day cricket are completely different games and success in one doesn't neccesarily denote success in the other (Knight, Hick, Fairbrother, etc.)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Tim said:
Oh come on Eddie!! whats wrong with trying to keep Bangladesh interested in the game?
The problem is it damages Hussain's average and that's far, far more important than any result-margin.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
marc71178 said:
For some reason I forgot the openers!

As far as best One Day Batsman, unfortunately he retired after the World Cup.
Well, at least some people recognise Nick Knight's status.
 

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