*Official* Australia tour of New Zealand Feb-Mar 2024

[TheJediBrah]

It spun consistently from quite early in the test.

I'd imagine Santner would have been useful on this pitch. I'm assuming that's the spot kuggeleijn took?

If Santner plays, Phillips probably doesn't bowl as much, and you end up with the same sort of output at best. Potentially worse.

From an empirical standpoint with hindsight though he surely should have played

 

[Silver Silva]

In many ways Williamson's career is very comparable to Kumar Sangakkara's , who also had a few holes in his record that never sat well with some.

 

[social]

If Santner plays, Phillips probably doesn't bowl as much, and you end up with the same sort of output at best. Potentially worse.

From an empirical standpoint with hindsight though he surely should have played

Only time I saw Phillips bowl in this test was some filthy medium pacers in the first innings

 

[Moss]

If Santner plays, Phillips probably doesn't bowl as much, and you end up with the same sort of output at best. Potentially worse.

From an empirical standpoint with hindsight though he surely should have played

While Phillips is working really hard on his bowling (and apparently enjoys bowling against Australia) would bank on Santner to outbowl him most of the time.

The bowler whose output NZ have missed quite a bit since his retirement is Colin de Grandhomme. Had an ER of 2.4, kept it tight even abroad, and in NZ could become a wicket taking threat if conditions played a certain way.

 

[RMBolton]

BTW, I know I've taken the position for the longest time now that yeah Latham sucks but he's the best opener we have so leave him alone, but his dismissals in this test have caused me to finally think it's time to give someone else a crack. The guy's never made runs v good attacks. Yes I know he makes piles of runs every time he goes back to Canterbury, but all that does is make him NZ's version of Graeme Hick. I don't think he needs to be dropped forever necessarily, but it's high time that someone else got a chance.

Problem is, who comes in? Unless you send Rachin up top, you have to bring someone else in. It really pissed me off sending Young to the top when the previous Test he thrived about as much as he ever has in the middle order.

 

[Moss]

Problem is, who comes in? Unless you send Rachin up top, you have to bring someone else in. It really pissed me off sending Young to the top when the previous Test he thrived about as much as he ever has in the middle order.

Rehashing my earlier post, if Conway is fit I think it’s a good one off opportunity to give Latham a reality check. He’s quite lucky this year is packed with tours to Asia, post which we have some idea of what to expect from him against attacks not in his comfort zone. He will obviously play in the subcontinent, so maybe give him this game off on the basis of form.

Young/Conway is certainly not a combination I would want to see even for one test, but that’s what you get for not developing a single new specialist opener since Raval was dropped some 4 years ago.

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

If Santner plays, Phillips probably doesn't bowl as much, and you end up with the same sort of output at best. Potentially worse.

From an empirical standpoint with hindsight though he surely should have played

You have to remember NZ only really saw spin as a threat when Lyon opened their eyes.

In Australia's first innings of 383 which lasted 115 overs , they didn't bowl Phillips at all and Ravindra only got 7 overs, in which he picked up a wicket.

Also Scotty K was largely ineffective..

Had Santner played he bowls the majority of Kugeleijn's overs in the first innings, and probably NZ would have realised that spin is a legit threat, so they would have possibly bowled Phillips in tandem with Santner, given Southee's lack of threat in the 1st innings aswell.

 

[Sunil1z]

The more troubling question is : NZ captain can’t read their own home pitch ? Or was this a poorly prepared pitch .

 

[Spark]

The more troubling question is : NZ captain can’t read their own home pitch ? Or was this a poorly prepared pitch .

I suspect they assumed it would be a typical NZ/Basin Reserve pitch, which is green for maybe a day and a half and then flattens out completely, but never offers anything for spinners at all. Instead we got a pitch which wouldn't be out of place in Centurion for the quicks and is like Lyon's dream deck on top of that. He didn't even have to bowl particularly well for large stretches to run rampant.

 

[SteveNZ]

So apparently KW averages mid 30s against Australia, England and India. Bloke is one of the biggest minnow bashers and HTBs in cricket but seems to have largely escaped scrutiny for it. Because he plays for NZ and not a higher profile country?

I don't feel like this is completely unwarranted...even if it were delivered in true trolling TJB stylings. My thoughts:

1) It's not like he doesn't have significant innings' against those sides. He averaged 85 on the 2015 Australian tour, including his 140 at Brisbane which was the level above world class. He scored a ton on debut in India, and two knocks against them in the WTC final that were worthy of hundreds. Also has four tons against England (two each v India and Australia) including a match-saving one and a brilliant one that was match-winning at the Basin last year. So 8 tons against those opposition, and at high 30s. It isn't what he'd like, but he has big moments to show he's not scared of them.
2) He owns big moments against the other sides, he doesn't downhill ski. Even the three tons this summer v SA, on a scorecard they look downhill but we absolutely lose those Tests without him and look ****ing stupid. Last summer was the same - the two big Tests we won back-to-back, he scored huge pressure 100s. Since COVID, he has 11 tons and only a single 50, which was not out in the WTC final. I saw some stat the other day, he has far and away the best 4th innings record for scoring hundreds. He averages 55 in the 4th innings which is insane. His 102* v SA in 2012 v Steyn, Philander and Morkel was an other-worldly match-saver. Also has six double hundreds, the first of which against Sri Lanka was from a calamitous position, for example, and eventually won the game.
3) He averages 54 v England in ODIs, 44 v India and 37 v Australia. Last one isn't ideal, but it's not a mental block, clearly. Was man of the tournament at the 2019 World Cup. Played the lone hand to get NZ over the line in that 2015 pool game epic v Australia. Again, doesn't shirk big moments.
4) He's had to carry this side for long periods of time, where if he didn't score runs we'd be a minnow. He's never had a decent opener against those big 3 sides. I'd like to see what the average score he's come in v Australia/England/India. Yes, Steve Smith scored runs at 10/2, I get it. Steve Smith's record is probably better. 4 is easier to bat at than 3, I'd point out.
5) Part of it is because he's from NZ, and he's the greatest batsman we've ever had - comfortably - and we don't like to think too hard about it. He's our guy. Our genius. We have so many good memories of him winning big moments, that we see a bit deeper than the numbers...but I completely get it that people from the outside wouldn't. Scoring 32 Test tons for a country whose next best is 19 (and 17 before Kane's career started) he's smashed through the ceiling of what anyone thought it could mean to score runs for NZ. He's been captain for a lot of that, battled through significant issues with his elbow, we play less Test cricket than other nations...there's other contexts, as well.
6) He's a high quality person, and that means something to us

 

[honestbharani]

What a waste.

 

[Silver Silva]

Pat Cummins 16th Test win as Test Captain moves him ahead of Sir Don Bradman and Ian Chappell on the all-time list for Australian Test Captaincy wins.

Next in his sights is Steven Smith & Greg Chappell (21).
I wonder how far he can go up the list .

 

[NZTailender]

Is anyone asking you to do that? I mean, you’ve seen the NZ Doom and Gloom thread? What’s the point? Why do you want to punch down anyway? Odd tstl.

He picks an easy target rather than going for the hard ones, much like his hero, Kane Williamson trundler is self hating in this respect, spiritually a Kiwi, hence his gravitation towards us

 

[kevinw]

Re: Phillips, are there many other cricketers who ditched the gloves to become a very effective bowler? Tristan Stubbs also has kept and bowls spin (though not to GPs level).

 

[Bahnz]

Rehashing my earlier post, if Conway is fit I think it’s a good one off opportunity to give Latham a reality check. He’s quite lucky this year is packed with tours to Asia, post which we have some idea of what to expect from him against attacks not in his comfort zone. He will obviously play in the subcontinent, so maybe give him this game off on the basis of form.

Young/Conway is certainly not a combination I would want to see even for one test, but that’s what you get for not developing a single new specialist opener since Raval was dropped some 4 years ago.

I honestly don't care who comes in. Solia appears to be the form opener in the plunket shield this season, though some people on here have written him off. Dunno, never seen him bat. But it could be him, Will O'Donnell, Henry Cooper etc. Hell we could crib from Australia's notes and promote KW up the order. We need to at least try something else. Latham's now played 40 tests v India, England, Aus and SA and averages 26 v them.

 

[Bahnz]

If Santner plays, Phillips probably doesn't bowl as much, and you end up with the same sort of output at best. Potentially worse.

From an empirical standpoint with hindsight though he surely should have played

He's also probably good for more runs than Kugz.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Re: Phillips, are there many other cricketers who ditched the gloves to become a very effective bowler? Tristan Stubbs also has kept and bowls spin (though not to GPs level).

Tilakaratne Dilshan

 

[Silver Silva]

Re: Phillips, are there many other cricketers who ditched the gloves to become a very effective bowler? Tristan Stubbs also has kept and bowls spin (though not to GPs level).

Tillakaratne Dilshan started out as a keeper , took 150 + international wickets

 

[straw man]

Tom Latham has been in the side a long time now, maybe needs a freshen up & reset. He's just shy of 32 so could in theory have 3-4 good years left, so needs to work out what he wants to achieve.

In mine and many other's opinions we should move on from him as the ODI wicket keeper. Surely won't be it for the next ODI world cup and we should start with other options whenever we next play ODIs. He's perhaps been caught between two very different roles, as test opener and ODI wk bat in the middle order, which don't have a lot of crossover skills. I don't know what he wants, but the best thing for NZ imo would be if he forgets ODIs and doubled down on being the best test opening batsman he could be. I don't think he's that at the moment - yeah maybe he'd always fail against the top tier test bowlers, but the last few series he's been swishing at a lot of balls that a test opener has no business playing it. Renewed intense focus might eliminate that from his game.

 

[Prince EWS]

Only time I saw Phillips bowl in this test was some filthy medium pacers in the first innings

I think you're confusing him with Mitchell.