***Official*** Australia in England (The Ashes)

[FaaipDeOiad]

Mark Waugh is one of the most over-rated catchers of all time he dropped more than he should have.

Heh. Anti-NSW bias, much?

 

[honestbharani]

http://content.cricinfo.com/columns/content/story/146254.html

Go right ahead and argue, but your arguement is with S Rajesh who produced the stats, you show me something other than " I think Dravid is not the luckiest cricketer" and I will compare that to his assesment.

And the most dropped batsman since 2003 is Sehwag, Ponting, Trescothic and Bashar.

But its Dravid that cashes in on the dropped catches.
Since the start of 2003, Dravid has been given let-offs six times, and has made the opposition pay to the tune of 378 runs - that's 63 per dropped chance. Include the fact that he's remained unbeaten on two of those occasions, and the average shoots up to nearly 95.

So dont let the facts get in the way, even though Langer has less let-offs than most batsmen people just cant get past their biases and accept the quality of this batsman.

So you go right ahead and put up your arguement.

You actually think that because of the fact that Dravid cashes in on his opportunities, he is lucky? Lucky would be, as you pointed out, Sehwag, Ponting etc... It is not Dravid's fault that those guys can't make better use of their luck.


BTW, whoever said Langer is less than quality. I actually rate him as one of the two best openers in the world, alongside Sehwag.

 

[gibbsnsmith]

Does it honestly matter who's "luckier"? If anything we should be judging who takes his chances better and punishes the team who dropped them.

 

[gibbsnsmith]

Mark Waugh was an excellent pair of hands. I suspect his ratio of dropped:caught is up there amongst the best for slip fielders.

 

[Richard]

Heh. Anti-NSW bias, much?

Because that's why he'd argue against me several times when I've said MacGill is rubbish?

 

[Richard]

And the most dropped batsman since 2003 is Sehwag, Ponting, Trescothic and Bashar.

I'm a bit surprised Ponting is in there, but the other 3 are utterly predictable.
Having said that, it'd be far more interesting to do it from 2000 onwards.

 

[Richard]

but still better than most sides in international cricket

Certainly nowhere near as good as South Africa of late; not as good as England; not as good as New Zealand or even close; and being better than India and Pakistan is such an achievement isn't it?!

 

[Richard]

This is the point I was making, Chappelli often makes the point 'at least if you go for your shots, it takes a lot more catching' (not an excact quote) So would this not be increasing your luck?

It sometimes makes an easy catch into a slightly less easy one.
And that's about it.
Or sometimes, of course, it turns what would have been a chance into something that isn't one: ie the "if you flash, flash hard" - dab and it'll go to slip, slash and it'll go over slip.

 

[Richard]

No, it is not, and no matter how often you say it, it will remain a matter of opinion, which is thus too random to base any meaningful statistic on.

It will remain a matter of opinion a long as people make the mistake of taking it so lightly.

 

[marc71178]

No, it will always be a matter of opinion because people have different views on something that isn't hard facts.

 

[Top_Cat]

Certainly nowhere near as good as South Africa of late; not as good as England; not as good as New Zealand or even close

Really? Define 'better' and then show some numbers to back up what you're saying or your ratings are 'utterly meaningless'.

 

[Mister Wright]

Sorry, but you're wrong.

He was one of the best ever catchers in any position.

There's a difference between being being a good catcher and an over-rated catcher. For Mark Waugh to be considered one of the best ever catches is a disgrace to the game. Fair enough he took some screamers, and was a solid slip fielder, but he dropped far too many 'sitters' to be even considered near the best ever. Guys like Simpson, Taylor and others from the past, didn't have the flair or the ease of Mark Waugh, but they caught more than most of their 'sitters'. Great players do what is needed when is needed, a great rugby league player throws the right pass at the right time, or puts the right kick up at the right time, like a soccer player kicks the goal just when it is needed or a great tennis player serves that ace when most needed. For Mark Waugh to be considered one of the greatest catches ever he needed to catch more of the easy ones rather than just make up for it with the odd screamer.

 

[vic_orthdox]

I think that Waugh's catching waned a lot faster than his batting...

 

[Mister Wright]

But were the catches he 'dropped' ones that no-one else would have gotten anywhere near?

I saw plenty of Mark Waugh field and I have on video some catches he dropped but they were extremely tough. The one over-riding thing I remember about Mark Waugh is that yes he took the screamer no-one else could take but also, when a catch was coming his way which was pretty awkward, his fantastic technique ensured that he took it easily. Ian Chappell once said that you'd pay good money just to watch Mark Waugh field (let alone bat!) and Waugh is certainly just about the only player I could do that for.

If we believed everything the commentators said we'd be idiots.

 

[Mister Wright]

Heh. Anti-NSW bias, much?

What does saying Mark Waugh being an over-rated catcher have anything to do with Anti-NSW bias? I was rating the guy on his performances as a catcher, and my post above clearly states the reasons. Steve Waugh, Stuart MacGill, Mike Whitney & Gavin Robertson are/have been some of my favourite players. I don't object to NSW players if they deserve their spots in the national side, but if they get in there by under performing that is when I have a problem.

 

[archie mac]

There's a difference between being being a good catcher and an over-rated catcher. For Mark Waugh to be considered one of the best ever catches is a disgrace to the game. Fair enough he took some screamers, and was a solid slip fielder, but he dropped far too many 'sitters' to be even considered near the best ever. Guys like Simpson, Taylor and others from the past, didn't have the flair or the ease of Mark Waugh, but they caught more than most of their 'sitters'. Great players do what is needed when is needed, a great rugby league player throws the right pass at the right time, or puts the right kick up at the right time, like a soccer player kicks the goal just when it is needed or a great tennis player serves that ace when most needed. For Mark Waugh to be considered one of the greatest catches ever he needed to catch more of the easy ones rather than just make up for it with the odd screamer.

I saw Mark Taylor drop catches. I have no doubt that Junior Afghanistan Waugh was the best slipper I have seen. Next you will be telling us he was an ugly batsman.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Everybody dropped catches sometimes. The fact is, Mark Waugh took some of the most memorable catches of all time, has more than any other player, and on top of his ability for brilliance also did an excellent job with the bread and butter stuff for slips. His partnership with Warne was simply phenomenal, and for evidence of how important he (and Taylor, who imo is also in the top 10 best ever slip fielders) was to Australia, look at how the standards of catching in the Australian slip cordon have dropped since their retirements. M. Waugh, Taylor, Warne may well be the best slips trio to ever play in the same team, and Mark was the basis of that.

 

[shaka]

I would rate Taylor and M. Waugh extremely highly on the all time slip fielders ranking.

 

[badgerhair]

There's a difference between being being a good catcher and an over-rated catcher. For Mark Waugh to be considered one of the best ever catches is a disgrace to the game. Fair enough he took some screamers, and was a solid slip fielder, but he dropped far too many 'sitters' to be even considered near the best ever. Guys like Simpson, Taylor and others from the past, didn't have the flair or the ease of Mark Waugh, but they caught more than most of their 'sitters'.

Four men have taken 10 or more catches in four separate series: Botham, Ian Chappell, Bobby Simpson and Mark Waugh. If Mark Waugh is such rubbish, why is he joint holder of a number of catches record with three definite greats in the slips area?

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Scallywag]

For Mark Waugh to be considered one of the greatest catches ever he needed to catch more of the easy ones rather than just make up for it with the odd screamer.

I find this statement a bit hard to understand. Mark has taken more catches than any other player.