*Official* Australia in decline thread

[CoverDrive]

Crumbling Australia?

Hello All.

I'm a newbie. Hope to have some fun here.

For starters I'm wondering what you're thinking about the Aussies? Are the crumbling given the plethora of injuries they now have? Not going to India with any of their top four bowlers can hurt them badly especially if those injuries hold over for the India tour of Australia later this year.

This can mean a real start to their downfall. Or is their 'structure' too strong for them to falter?

CoverDrive

 

[age_master]

the structure here is great the great thing about Aussie sports teams, not just cricket teams, is that they always seem to be able to come up with that little bit extra that wins games, Today Katich took 6 wickets, previously, Langer + Gilly @ hobart, Bevan - 4 off the last ball to beat WI, and outside cricket, Thorpe in relays, Larkham in the prev WC semi, like the 3 blenesloe cups before this one etc.

back to cricket, we will be fine once people start recovering, Macgill will be back very soon, Lee will be back 3-4 weeks and McGrath for the Boxing day test, Watson i believe will be able to start bowling again ust before Christmas. Warne will be back on feb 16th . once these players come back we will be fine again, you must remember that over the last couple of years generally we have had no injuries, so we have done pretty well, its just unusual that there are so many at once, but it is of no real long term concern

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

If the injuries cause Australia to lose a few matches and allow other teams to get some confidence, I believe that it may well have an effect on the Aussies.

IMO the only major factor that separates the Australian cricket team from everyone else if their confidence. I don't think they are more talented than the rest of world and aren't necessarily better trained, but there are extremely confident that they will win no matter what. I think they owe alot to Steve Waugh in this respect.

 

[anzac]

If the injuries cause Australia to lose a few matches and allow other teams to get some confidence, I believe that it may well have an effect on the Aussies.

IMO the only major factor that separates the Australian cricket team from everyone else if their confidence. I don't think they are more talented than the rest of world and aren't necessarily better trained, but there are extremely confident that they will win no matter what. I think they owe alot to Steve Waugh in this respect.

maybe if they lost a home test & odi series, but that ain't going to happen as they will have most of their bowling attack back for the Indian tour.

yes they are confident but they are also very professional and have an extreem will to win.

my vote as the guy responsible goes back to Bob Simpson as their Coach - IMO he's the one who got this going, while Waugh & Buchanan have refined it to it's current application.

 

[Anil]

The nucleus of this team was formed under Border. The team really started winning consistently under Taylor and by the time, Waugh took over the reins, the Aussie team was already a relentless winning machine. For sure, Waugh and Buchanan added their own refinements and even improved on their predecessors' records, but much of the spade work had already been done and the dynamic captaincy of Taylor had instilled self-belief and confidence into the team. As such I would give even more credit to Border, Taylor and Simpson than Waugh and Buchanan for the current happy state of affairs in Australian cricket.

 

[Langeveldt]

Welcome to the forums

Yeah I dont think Australia are particularly more talented than anyone else, but they seem to have the belief, training and support staff, as well as leadership to really excell.. they have just been unlucky with injuries.. they are playing India at home right? I think they will still win, but they are obviously at a disadvantage....

 

[Richard]

Mr. M - I very much agree that the main difference between Australia and many (South Africa, England, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, India) is simply that the others fear the Australians. And do not understimate the lack of injuries Australia have suffered in their period of dominance - so often, I have thought "a full-strength so-and-so would be a different kettle-of-fish". And yet Australia suffered so few injuries, everyone else so many in comparison. And when missed chances in the field start to take their turn, the results are inevitable...
It is true that Australia will be fine again IF they get all the injured players back again, but it is an IF, not neccesarily a when. We can simply wait and see.

 

[The Argonaut]

I think confidence does play a big part in the Aussies success. It means that they win the 50-50 situations that arise in matches. Other less confident don't take their chances and suffer.

The selection policy also has played a part. Players are match hardened by a quality first class system so they know their own games when they reach the top level. They generally are not thrown in after 1 or 2 seasons of first class cricket. It would have been easy to pick Clarke in the test side earlier this year because his potential is there for everyone to see. However he has been nurtured through the one day side and will be given more time in the Pura Cup to gain valuable experience.

Selections can also not be taken for granted. Every member of the test side (full strength) has been dropped at one point except for Gilchrist.

It's a bit early to say the Aussies are crumbling. The batting depth will mean an easy transition when key players retire. the bowling though is of greater concern. I'm not seeing the greatness coming through in the Pura Cup. This season presents a good opportunity for guys like Bollinger, Clark, Tait, Cleary, Griffith to build on the good work of their first seasons last year. Fringe players like Noffke, Inness, Bracken, Williams, Nicholson, Kasprowicz could get their chance this season as well. THere are no brilliant options in that group just good solid first class cricketers.

 

[Kenny]

I don't think Australia are 'crumbling' ......the only thing that concerns me at all is that out of the top seven batsman, six are over 30.
When Mark Waugh was dumped, that would have been a perfect opportunity to freshen up the side with Katich, Clarke, Hussey or some other player under 30!! Instead, the selectors put in yet another player who was 32 when selected.......the thing is that most, if not all these guys will end up retiring within a year or two of each other at some point over the next 5 years...... Not good planning.

On the injury front, Australia's bowlers have had their share of injuries over the last five - ten years.
McDermott (knee), Gillespie (various), Lee (elbow), McGrath (various), Warne (shoulder) have all been injured prior to the latest bad run of injuries.
We still beat Zimbabwe easily even with a second string attack.........and I thought Brad Williams was quite good, he will only improve with more test bowling against more sides on different wickets.

There are a few good young bowlers coming through, like Michael Clarke from Western Australia, a tall, rangy left armer, and Mitchell Johnson, a very quick left armer from Queensland, along with the guys already mentioned - also Shaun Tait from SA looks promising.......these guys are quite young, and really, only McGrath and Bichel are over 30 in the pace bowling department at the moment........we will have Gillespie, Lee and Williams around for a good few years yet.

 

[iamdavid]

Richard , do you have MSN

 

[iamdavid]

I certainly dont think they are crumbling , things are a little worrying with all these injuries but such is the strength of the Australian domestic game that I dont think we have anything to worry about , obviously Australia is the best team in the world , but who is next ......Australia A of course
A full strength NSW side would beat any team in the world , any test side , any FC side you can name.
1.M.Slater
2.B.Haddin
3.S.Katich
4.M.Waugh
5.S.Waugh
6.M.Clarke
7.M.Bevan
8.B.Lee
9.S.Clark
10.S.MacGill
11.G.McGrath

With Australian players gaining exposure to that quality of opposition so early on they will always have the edge , in fact test cricket is a step down as far as standard goes from that competition , Noffke , Williams , Griffith , Clark , they are not McGrath's but they are a damn good attack by Australian domestic standards & therefore will be a damn good attack by test standards , every player in the test team could suddenly get injured & provided the selectors were smart we would still beat anyone.

The only concern is the age-
Hayden-31
Langer-32
Ponting-28
Martyn-32
Waugh-105(nah 38)
Lehmann-33
Gilchrist-32
Warne-34(by the time he plays again)
Gillespie-28
Lee-26
McGrath-33


Thats an average age of 31.54 & worryingly 32.28 among the batsman.

No one under 25.

In fact even the reserve batsmen are all pushing 30.
Hussey-28
Hodge-29
Katich-28
Maher-29
Love-29
Campbell-31
Clarke-22
thats an average of 28 & 29 when you exclude Clarke

Only one of the best 12 batsmen & keepers (according to the selectors) in the country are under 25 , furthermore only 1 of them will likely be around in 10 years time.

We need to blood some youngsters , in the A team most likely.

there are some decent under 25's around-
Shaun Marsh(WA)
Marcus North(WA)
Cameron White(VIC)
Dominic Thornely(NSW)
Nathan Hauritz(QLD)
Shane Watson(TAS)
Matthew Inness(VIC)
Adam Griffith(TAS)
Doug Bollinger(NSW)
Mark Cleary(SA)
Shaun Tait(SA)
Xavier Doherty(TAS)
George Bailey(TAS)
David Dawson(TAS)
Graeme Manou(SA)
Robert Cassell(VIC)
Adam Crosswaithe(VIC)
Micheal Clark(WA)

Now admittedly not all of those players are even certain to play for their states regularly , but at least a few of them must have what it takes so lets blood them now while we are winning rather then waiting 5 years , panicking , & throwing them in the deep end.

 

[PY]

A full strength NSW side would beat any team in the world , any test side , any FC side you can name.
1.M.Slater
2.B.Haddin
3.S.Katich
4.M.Waugh
5.S.Waugh
6.M.Clarke
7.M.Bevan
8.B.Lee
9.S.Clark
10.S.MacGill
11.G.McGrath

Agreed, that team looks quite strong......

With Australian players gaining exposure to that quality of opposition so early on they will always have the edge , in fact test cricket is a step down as far as standard goes from that competition , Noffke , Williams , Griffith , Clark , they are not McGrath's but they are a damn good attack by Australian domestic standards & therefore will be a damn good attack by test standards , every player in the test team could suddenly get injured & provided the selectors were smart we would still beat anyone.

That's a tad over the top IMO. Yes, the standard of Australian domestic cricket is the best in the world....but to say that Test cricket is a step down for these guys smacks of exaggeration beyond belief.

If it's a step down, how come their averages for FC cricket are higher than for Test cricket.

Granted the gap isn't as bad as it is in England but I don't think you'll find anyone arguing that English County cricket is as strong as Australia. The only big gap is the machine that is Gilchrist who's Test average is 10 more than his FC but his average is SLIGHTLY inflated for Tests IMO (see other threads for the arguments).

 

[iamdavid]

Obviously test cricket is mentally a lot tougher than domestic cricket , however in terms of quality of opposition I honestly think Australian domestic cricket would be harder , if you were Simon Katich , who would you rather play against Zimbabwe or a full stregnth Queensland?

 

[Neil Pickup]

Would rather play against Zimbabwe or a full stregnth Queensland?

Or England/SA/India/Pakistan/NZ/WI/SL or Tasmania/Victoria/WA etc.

You wonder why Aussies annoy us?

 

[marc71178]

if you were Simon Katich , who would you rather play against Zimbabwe or a full stregnth Queensland?

One of, if not the, most stupid comments on this forum ever.

Would a proud Australian rather represent his country of his state?

 

[Richard]

A full strength NSW side would beat any team in the world , any test side , any FC side you can name.
1.M.Slater
2.B.Haddin
3.S.Katich
4.M.Waugh
5.S.Waugh
6.M.Clarke
7.M.Bevan
8.B.Lee
9.S.Clark
10.S.MacGill
11.G.McGrath

Now, come on, david - of course the first-choice NSW side is by far the strongest domestic side in World cricket; has been for years, even before Katich and Clarke, but to suggest Lee is a more valuable quantity than MacGill...
I mean, MacGill's not great, but he's not that bad...:P
Seriously, I'd probably prefer have Lee than Stuart Clark, but he strikes me as one of the better back-up seamers going around ATM. Certainly close to Kasprowicz, Bichel, Lee, Noffke and Harwood. Not in the McGrath, Gillespie, Inness league, but not too far behind. Quite why these WA guys Michael Clark and Willaims keep getting mentioned instead of him I really haven't a clue. People keep writing "Clark" and I think they're talking about Stuart, but no! Michael every time!
As for the original point; NSW would beat f-s South Africa, England, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, even possibly West Indies? I think not. They're good, but they're not THAT good.

With Australian players gaining exposure to that quality of opposition so early on they will always have the edge , in fact test cricket is a step down as far as standard goes from that competition , Noffke , Williams , Griffith , Clark , they are not McGrath's but they are a damn good attack by Australian domestic standards & therefore will be a damn good attack by test standards , every player in the test team could suddenly get injured & provided the selectors were smart we would still beat anyone.

david, please! I know you Australians can be a short-sighted, mirror-loving bunch, but that's just going too far. Test-cricket, a step down from The Pura Cup? You must remember that these Zimbabwe, Bangladesh games are Tests in name only. Almost likewise these recent games against West Indies, England and Pakistan aren't much of a test, but Test-cricket, as you will soon be reminded, can actually be a test OCCASIONALLY. You are soon to visit India. Remember what happened there last time? And when do you next go to Sri Lanka?

 

[Rich2001]

A full strength NSW side would beat any team in the world , any test side , any FC side you can name.
1.M.Slater
2.B.Haddin
3.S.Katich
4.M.Waugh
5.S.Waugh
6.M.Clarke
7.M.Bevan
8.B.Lee
9.S.Clark
10.S.MacGill
11.G.McGrath

I don't dispute that NSW would put up a huge fight to anyone they play, but really when can NSW put that side out... once? Twice a season?

I decided to see how they faired in the domestic comp after your bold statement that they could destory anyone and I was Shocked to say the least, I always thought NSW were a decent team but really when the Internationals are away (which lets face it is always) they have a shocking back up team!

Last 5 Seasons - First Class Comp

- QLD Winners : NSW 2nd by 4 points (but won the final)
- QLD Winners : NSW BOTTOM with a mear 12 points
- QLD Winners : NSW 4th
- QLD Winners : NSW BOTTOM with a LOL 5.6 points
- QLD Winners : NSW BOTTOM with umm 10 points
- WA Winners : NSW 4th 20 points of the lead (Ok I was bored of QLD winning it so had to keep going till I found someone else)


Now iam sure that the named NSW side has been togeter for the last 5/6 seasons bar 1 or two, but even before them you had other full Internationals like M.Taylor so you can't really say the side has gone down hill.

If I was the NSW coach I would really forget about your team and actually get players that will play and win you somthing :P :saint:

 

[Blewy]

I don't dispute that NSW would put up a huge fight to anyone they play, but really when can NSW put that side out... once? Twice a season?

I decided to see how they faired in the domestic comp after your bold statement that they could destory anyone and I was Shocked to say the least, I always thought NSW were a decent team but really when the Internationals are away (which lets face it is always) they have a shocking back up team!

Last 5 Seasons - First Class Comp

- QLD Winners : NSW 2nd by 4 points (but won the final)
- QLD Winners : NSW BOTTOM with a mear 12 points
- QLD Winners : NSW 4th
- QLD Winners : NSW BOTTOM with a LOL 5.6 points
- QLD Winners : NSW BOTTOM with umm 10 points
- WA Winners : NSW 4th 20 points of the lead (Ok I was bored of QLD winning it so had to keep going till I found someone else)


Now iam sure that the named NSW side has been togeter for the last 5/6 seasons bar 1 or two, but even before them you had other full Internationals like M.Taylor so you can't really say the side has gone down hill.

If I was the NSW coach I would really forget about your team and actually get players that will play and win you somthing :P :saint:

New South Wales Backup players aren't that bad, The problem has been that NSW's dominance in Australian Selections has had a big advantage for the other states, we were forced to bring through alot of players who were not ready, however now those players are finding there feet, NSW are starting to show that even without their stars they can compete with the sides who have almost full strength teams...

 

[Rich2001]

New South Wales Backup players aren't that bad, The problem has been that NSW's dominance in Australian Selections has had a big advantage for the other states, we were forced to bring through alot of players who were not ready, however now those players are finding there feet, NSW are starting to show that even without their stars they can compete with the sides who have almost full strength teams...

Just out of intrest, not wantting to take the subject off topic to much.. with S.Katich, S.Waugh, B.Lee, S.MacGill, G.McGrath and Co all away on International duty, what would a NSW first XI look like? and a team when the ODI are on, when you lose Bevan and Clarke etc as well

 

[Blewy]

With no Test Players

Slater
Richards
M.Waugh
M.Clarke
Bevan
Jacques
Haddin (wk)
Nash
Nicholson
S.Clark
O'Brien


With no OD Players

Slater
Haddin (wk)
M.Waugh
S.Waugh
Richards
Katich
Thornley/Lambert
Nash
Nicholson
S.Clark
MacGill