*Official* Australia in decline thread

[Top_Cat]

Now iam sure that the named NSW side has been togeter for the last 5/6 seasons bar 1 or two, but even before them you had other full Internationals like M.Taylor so you can't really say the side has gone down hill.

Rich, NSW won both comps last year, mate.

 

[The Argonaut]

The statement that Pura Cup cricket is a step up from Test Cricket is completely wrong. First class averages vs test averages prove that.

Those NSW sides listed don't include Mail or Bollinger who would be in the sides I'm sure.

Qld have done well in previous seasons because the selectors have ignored them. Guys like Maher, Law, Love, Kaspar, Bichel over the years have done very well but have not been selected much. That has meant that Qld has fielded a consistent sqaud throughout the season. NSW have been hit hard by the Aussie selectors but at least they got to play for Australia.

 

[iamdavid]

One of, if not the, most stupid comments on this forum ever.

Would a proud Australian rather represent his country of his state?

Of course , however speaking purely in terms of quality of opposition!!!

And come on Richard , that New South Wales side has aprroximately 382 test caps & 850 ODI caps between them , aswell as a host of Australia A players , I certainly stand by my comments that the New South Wales team , at full strength , would defeat any team currently playing the game today , South Africa , Pakistan , anyone, the only side which could really give them a decent run for their money is India in India.

I think you guys may be reading just a little bit much into my comments that test cricket is a step down for them , the point I was making is that Australian players are gaining exposure to opposition of such high quality as the aforementioned NSW side very early in their carears & therefore they have to lift their games if they are to make it to the highest level , and in many cases when they get to the highest level the opposition is not quite as strong as it was at Pura Cup level , obviously all the tradition & prestige that comes with playing for you're country & wearing the baggy green makes it very special , test cricket is mentally alot tougher , there is much more media scrutiny & if you dont perform you're out.

However what I was saying was that in SOME (but certainly not ALL) cases the raw standard of the opposition (and NOTHING else) is a little higher at Pura Cup level than test level.

The recent series against Zimbabwe was a good example.

I also said do you reckon Simon Katich would rather play against Zimbabwe or a full strength Queensland?
Obviously the answer was Zimbabwe as they are not half the team the Bull can be (as well as the honour of being selected for you're country), yet someone says that is the stupidest comment they have ever seen on here

Trust me Ive seen way stupider than that & Ive only been on here a couple of weeks.

As for NSW's lack of success at Pura/Sheffield Sheild level until recently , that is because until last year the Waugh's & Slater were usually with Australia & they didnt have Katich or Clarke.
Now Mark Waugh & Slater dont play for AUS at all & Steve only in tests.

And Richard why are you whingeing about MacGill & Lee , I included them both if you would care to check , if you mean Shane Lee , he's retired:P

 

[age_master]

a full strength NSW side would at the moment beat any test or ODI side. i have no doubt about that, we have more test / odi caps than most test sides, and steve Waugh has more test centuries alone than most test nations. how often they play is irrelavant to the point, we are defending the double anyway, so we did pretty well last year.


NSW full strength OD might look like this...

M Waugh
B Haddin
S Katich
S Waugh
M Clarke
M Bevan
D Thornley
B Lee
N Bracken
S Macgill
G McGrath


basicaly the Aussie attack - Gillespie, batting very strong, as always



4d
M Slater
S Katich
M Bevan
M Clarke
S Waugh
M Waugh
B Haddin
B Lee
Nicholsen
S Macgill
G McGrath


3 bowlers with test strike rates under like 55, batting super strong, Slats, Bevan, Waugh bros, Katich and Clarke - experience and talent.

Beat England, WI, Zim, SL, Ban, Pak fairly easily, RSA and India, harder ofcourse, but i reakon they would still win

 

[PY]

steve Waugh has more test centuries alone than most test nations

:rolleyes:

I'm going to ignore that comment.....MUST have been sarcasm

 

[Top_Cat]

Qld have done well in previous seasons because the selectors have ignored them. Guys like Maher, Law, Love, Kaspar, Bichel over the years have done very well but have not been selected much. That has meant that Qld has fielded a consistent sqaud throughout the season.

And let's not forget the 'Give Matt a bat' campaign. Having Hayden around for an entire season would have been just a little handy!

And come on Richard , that New South Wales side has aprroximately 382 test caps & 850 ODI caps between them , aswell as a host of Australia A players , I certainly stand by my comments that the New South Wales team , at full strength , would defeat any team currently playing the game today , South Africa , Pakistan , anyone, the only side which could really give them a decent run for their money is India in India.

a full strength NSW side would at the moment beat any test or ODI side. i have no doubt about that, we have more test / odi caps than most test sides, and steve Waugh has more test centuries alone than most test nations.

And yet an under-strength SA team has beaten a full strength or near full-strength NSW team a few times over the last few years in Adelaide and in NSW (last year, in fact was one such occasion)......

http://www-usa.cricket.org/db/ARCHIVE/2002-03/AUS_LOCAL/PC/SCORECARDS/NSW_SOA_PC_14-17NOV2002.html

I, in fact, remember one Sheffield Shield win by SA in Adelaide against a NSW team which included Taylor, the Waughs, McGrath, Bevan, etc.

I think you guys are looking through the world with blue-tinted glasses. On paper, they look a strong side but as the old saying goes, "A team of champions does not neccessarily make a champion team". It's more than ridiculous to suggest a First-Class team could beat 'any' Test side because it's got a few Test players, particularly since I've personally seen this strong side go down to some relatively weak FC sides.

 

[Bazza]

Thorpe in relays

USA took you down! Phelps is king. :P

 

[Bazza]

I think these injuries could hurt Australia in the short term, with regards to them being understrength agains India.

In the long term, this won;t do any harm. As others have pointed out, who wouldn't want to have McGrath, MacGill, Warne, Lee, Gillespie, etc coming back into the side??

What might hurt Australia in the long term is the ageing side. Many have compared it to the great WI side which had alot of retirements about 10 years ago and went into a slump. However, WICB was partly to blame for this by not developing the new players enough.

Australia won't have this problem as they have some top players waiting in the wings. I don't see a problem with players starting test cricket in their late 20s. Trescothick and Vaughan have been great for us but started at like 26/27. There is plenty of time for Katich say, to be a top test batsman. Steve Waugh is still going at 38 and showing that if you're good enough, you're young enough!

 

[marc71178]

Of all the arrogance seen on here, I've never seen it this bad before.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Australia now drawing level with India in the "Teams you'd most like to see thrashed" league. NSW clear leaders from Surrey.

 

[Richard]

Of course , however speaking purely in terms of quality of opposition!!!

And come on Richard , that New South Wales side has aprroximately 382 test caps & 850 ODI caps between them , aswell as a host of Australia A players , I certainly stand by my comments that the New South Wales team , at full strength , would defeat any team currently playing the game today , South Africa , Pakistan , anyone, the only side which could really give them a decent run for their money is India in India.

I think you guys may be reading just a little bit much into my comments that test cricket is a step down for them , the point I was making is that Australian players are gaining exposure to opposition of such high quality as the aforementioned NSW side very early in their carears & therefore they have to lift their games if they are to make it to the highest level , and in many cases when they get to the highest level the opposition is not quite as strong as it was at Pura Cup level , obviously all the tradition & prestige that comes with playing for you're country & wearing the baggy green makes it very special , test cricket is mentally alot tougher , there is much more media scrutiny & if you dont perform you're out.

However what I was saying was that in SOME (but certainly not ALL) cases the raw standard of the opposition (and NOTHING else) is a little higher at Pura Cup level than test level.

The recent series against Zimbabwe was a good example.

I also said do you reckon Simon Katich would rather play against Zimbabwe or a full strength Queensland?
Obviously the answer was Zimbabwe as they are not half the team the Bull can be (as well as the honour of being selected for you're country), yet someone says that is the stupidest comment they have ever seen on here

Trust me Ive seen way stupider than that & Ive only been on here a couple of weeks.

As for NSW's lack of success at Pura/Sheffield Sheild level until recently , that is because until last year the Waugh's & Slater were usually with Australia & they didnt have Katich or Clarke.
Now Mark Waugh & Slater dont play for AUS at all & Steve only in tests.

And Richard why are you whingeing about MacGill & Lee , I included them both if you would care to check , if you mean Shane Lee , he's retired:P

As regards MacGill, I don't know how I missed him, but I did. I apologise.
As regards the NSW side, sure, it's got lots of Test caps, but it's also got just 3 batsmen who have been undoubted successes at Test level (and two of them exited ignominiously - not that this counts overtly against them, just worth pointing-out), and one bowler who has been a consistent success (and even he isn't as good in my view as most reckon - no, my conversations with TC haven't altered my view - yet).
A very good side, yes, easily the best in the World of domestic cricket, but not one who would, in my view, challenge the best international sides. Of course it's completely impossible to prove either way.

 

[Top_Cat]

Of all the arrogance seen on here, I've never seen it this bad before.

I agree. The guys from the terraces were never as bad as this.

Australia now drawing level with India in the "Teams you'd most like to see thrashed" league. NSW clear leaders from Surrey.

As someone from SA, I AGREE.

 

[Richard]

Richard , do you have MSN

No, I don't.
Why?

 

[Salamuddin]

iamdavid you've gotta be joking

Your assertion that a full strength NSW team would beat
any other test side(barring India in India) is amusing.

Remember, a full NSW side has no Matty Hayden - easily Australia's best batsman. Who's his equivalent ? Slater --
Slater isn't anywhere as consistent.
No Gillespie - Who in NSW is Gonna replace him ? Bollinger, Nash, Stuart ClarK ? I don't think so.
No Langer - another element of the vital opening combo removed
- and its very hard to find a strong opening combination particularly one as good as Langer/Hayden.
No Gilchrist -- Gilchrist adds immeasurable strength to the Australian batting. In fact, If Australia had another keeper not as dynamic with the bat, they probably would have lost quite a few more tests - Hobart 1999/2000 and Mumbai 2001 spring to mind immediately. And please Haddin is not a patch on Gilchrist.
No Warne - no matter how good his average his, Macgill ain't as good as Warnie.
No Ponting - Australia's second best batsman out and no real equivalent in the NSW team.

NSW are almost certainly the best first class team in the world. They may even be able to beat the weaker test sides at home and possibly abroad. BUt they don't have the quality to beat the stronger sides.
Can you honestly see NSW going to RSA and beating the Proteas on their home turf in a 3 test series?

I think that due to Australia's dominance some of its supporters
have adopted the arrogant attitude of claiming that we are so far ahead of everyone else that even our A and first class teams would be too good for anyone else.

I don't even think our A side would be able to win test series against the stronger test nations. Sure it would certainly be very competitive, but not quite there.

 

[iamdavid]

Re: iamdavid you've gotta be joking

Can you honestly see NSW going to RSA and beating the Proteas on their home turf in a 3 test series?

Yes.

I know the NSW team is obviusly inferior the Australian lineup , however I reckon they could beat most other teams , South Africa arent what they used to be anyway , back when they had donald , Cronje , Rhodes , Klusener , Symcox etc.

Slater is in my opinion every bit as good as Hayden is , not quite as consustent but the quality of opposition must come into the debate somewhere.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Come back Chris Hinton, let's hear some sense..

 

[age_master]

yes, but remember that the Australian team is a few country miles ahead of any other test side in the world.


Macgill has a better SR that warne and has never been given the oportunity he could be. he is still much better than any other leg spinner in the world.

Ponting and Hayden, yeah, so what, no other team has them either - look at the NSW batting lineup for 4ders

Slater - 74 tests batting average 43.

M Waugh - 128 tests batting ave 41, FC 358 matches @ 52 - 208 wickets @ 40

S Waugh - 164 tests - batting average 52, 344 FC matchess average 52 - 23225 runs

S Katich - 2 tests @ 33.5, 6 wickets @ 15 - FC 101 matches @ 49, 62 wickets @ 35 - and coming down

M Clarke - 33 fc matches average 37 - but we have all heard of how good he is

M Bevan - 18 tests average 29, 29 wickets @ 24, 211 first class matches average 56. 115 wickets @ 45



McGrath - 430 test wickets @ 21, 683 FC wickets @ 20

Macgill - 133 wickets @ 26, 480 FC wickets @ 28, test SR 52, FC sr 51 - amazing for a spinner

Lee - 131 wickets @ 29, FC 260 wickets @ 25 - SR 51 for test, 46 for FC. and can bat a bit

Bracken - 85 wickets @ 29

and Haddin would keep - 42 matches @ 31 - this guy can really his a ball a long way.


that side is also an exceptional OD side, actually i just remembered we also now have Matt Nicholson - he would probably get in teh 4d side instead of Bracken, and hes also for an FC century

yeah i reakon that side would beat any other test side except India in india, but if all the younger players got a little experience over there that even that might change.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Arrogance embodied.

 

[JohnnyA]

How we will torment you all when the bubble finally bursts

 

[luckyeddie]

If Australia's so damned good, how come you invented Fosters?