No Ashes for India and Pakistan

[Sanz]

??!?
You actually pay attention to the wonky and rickety rating system in place in India ? Why not just take a stroll through the city while a match is on ? If you honestly havnt seen bajillions of people with a radio strapped to their ears or huddled around a tv screen when test matches are going on, then it is yet another thing that is unique for someone who's lived in India- for that kind of a thing is present in every galli-mohollah.

Dont tell me that a test match is as popular as ODI in subcontinet. How old are you ? There is a good chance that I have lived in India longer than what your age is and visit there at least once every year.

When I say Stadiums are mostly empty during test matches, you cited Amartya Sen's economic theories and argued that they watch it @ home, television. When I tell you that TRP ratings of tests are way lower than ODIs then you dismiss the rating just because it comes from India. So much for your argument. As if you have gone to every mohalla in India and counted the TV sets one by one.

 

[C_C]

Dont tell me that a test match is as popular as ODI in subcontinet. How old are you ? There is a good chance that I have lived in India longer than what your age is and visit there at least once every year.

Ofcourse not. ODI is far more popular. The point is, Test cricket isnt dead in the subcontinent and it has a far bigger test cricket following than anywhere else on this planet.

 

[honestbharani]

When India play Pakistan in a one-dayer, you could fill any stadium in the world. In test matches, about 12 turn up.

Doesn't seem very Ashes-like to me.

Did u NOT watch the Ind-Pak tests IN India? the 98/99 series had packed houses and the series last year got very good crowds as well, better than when Australia was here.

 

[honestbharani]

Who works 10-12 hours in a day ?

Dad and 10 other family members worked/still work for Tatas, work hours - 8-4/6-2/2-10 (includes 1 hour lunch) 6 days
Have a no. of family members working for govt (from Peon to IAS) Work hours - 10-4, 6 days

Have folks working in Banks, work Hours 10-5 (during year ends - 9 am to-9 pm), 6 days, 6th day being a half day.

Have brothers working in IT industry - work 8-10 hours on an avg. (5 days a week)

I work for the Tatas. I know for a fact that most people in my office come at 9 and leave at 8. And if you live IN the main areas of the city, the commute is a good one and a half hours. They keep score through the internet and sms and stuff. And it is the MAIN topic of discussion during every break at the cafeteria. I was there DISCUSSING the game yesterday and the day before. Work cultures have changed a lot over the past few years, Sanz. And TRP ratings are not the only way to determine whether people are interested in the game or not. And you MAY want to check out the TRPs of the highlights package on DD National for this series. I am sure it will be comfortably ahead of most other programmes.

 

[Sanz]

I work for the Tatas. I know for a fact that most people in my office come at 9 and leave at 8. And if you live IN the main areas of the city, the commute is a good one and a half hours. They keep score through the internet and sms and stuff. And it is the MAIN topic of discussion during every break at the cafeteria. I was there DISCUSSING the game yesterday and the day before. Work cultures have changed a lot over the past few years, Sanz. And TRP ratings are not the only way to determine whether people are interested in the game or not. And you MAY want to check out the TRPs of the highlights package on DD National for this series. I am sure it will be comfortably ahead of most other programmes.

Bharani - You must be working in IT industry. Now please tell us how many people work in the IT industry compared to other industry and you are right about TCS, Infy etc. But I can tell you that in my firm's (Deloitte) India (Hyderabad & Mumba) people dont work those hours, My younger brother works for Bausch in Banglore, his hours are flexible and 8-9 hours on an avg. and 12 during release. His commute time is about 30 minutes. Another Brother lives in Ghaziabad, works in Delhi (somewhere in CP, works for TCS) and his commute time is 20-30 minutes, Work house about 8-10 every day with 2nd and 4th saturday off .

Point is, making such statement is a gross generalization and nothing else.

 

[C_C]

Point is, making such statement is a gross generalization and nothing else.

It may be a generalisation but it is true in the case of the overwhelming majority of the Indian populace. Most villagers/townsfolk either travel hours to get to work or work 11-12 hours a day to make both ends meet. Dont disenfranchise them. They form the BULK of Indian population.
In IT industry, work times are brutal. In Steel industry- i have two cousins working in TISCO and Bhilai -(i think) the times are brutal- you are expected to work 40-45 hours a week at bare minimum and be on call for two out of 4 weeks a month.

Fact is, majority of Indians lead a harsher life than western folks for similar qualifications and skills. Which is why so many immigrates to the west.

 

[Sanz]

It may be a generalisation but it is true in the case of the overwhelming majority of the Indian populace. Most villagers/townsfolk either travel hours to get to work or work 11-12 hours a day to make both ends meet. Dont disenfranchise them. They form the BULK of Indian population.

Most Villagers/towsfolk travel hours ?? Do you have any data to prove that or once again it is based on your personal experiences of living in most villages,towns in India. Those who work 11-12 hours in farms dont have time to follow cricket and in case you didn't know most of them dont even have access to television set and they are more likely to listen Vividh Bharti from all india radio than listening to kishore bhimani commentating in english. Also dont put words in my mouth, I have never said that they dont form the bulk of Indian populace.

I dont even understand the relevance of all that here. These folks are least likely to go to Stadium to watch cricket as most stadiums are located in big cities far away from villages. I dont understand how you can use this as an excuse to prove your point that test matches are watched more on television as opposed to ODIs. Because even if these folks watch cricket, they are going to be watching it on TV be it ODIs or Tests.

In IT industry, work times are brutal.

Depends who you work for. If you work for top notch multinational, they aren't. If you work for TCS. Infy, Satyam etc then yes they are.

In Steel industry- i have two cousins working in TISCO and Bhilai -(i think) the times are brutal- you are expected to work 40-45 hours a week at bare minimum and be on call for two out of 4 weeks a month.

How is 40-45 hours spread over 6 days brutal ? All I can say is you have NO CLUE about TISCO. I am from a steel town, TATANAGAR aka JAMSHEDPUR. My dad worked for tatas for 45 years, at least 10 of my uncles, cousins are still working for Tatas and that includes TISCO, Tata Motors (formerly Telco) and every other Tata company. I can tell you that people work there in 3 shifts 6-2, 2-10,10-6 and that includes 1 hour of break. They get paid time off of about 30-45 days per year..Hardly Brutal. Obviously I cant speak for Bhilai, but I guess that comes under SAIL (Steel Authority Of India Limited) and I have interacted with many people from SAIL Bokaro and I found their work hours much more relaxed than Tatas as SAIL is a semi govt organization compared to TISCO which is a private organization.

Fact is, majority of Indians lead a harsher life than western folks for similar qualifications and skills. Which is why so many immigrates to the west.

Yeah that is a fact, but it has nothing to do with your 'DISPOSABLE INCOME' theory. It is because India is still a developing country and cant be compared to Developed nationas like USA. I can tell you that life of Serbs, Albanians, Turks, Greeks, Polish, East Germans (pre 1988), Romanians, Balkan citizens etc isn't any better than that of Indians..

 

[Deja moo]

Well, one last stab.

Now, India has historically (I'm talking millenia) been one of the richest countries on the planet. The US as we know it didnt even exist until around 500 years ago.

Present day situation: India is one of the poorer nations, and the US is perhaps the most prosperous nation on Earth.

Now just because India was richer for 4 millenia or so, compared to the Johnny come lately, the US, who has been more dominant for lets say 300 years, doesnt mean I'll go about claiming that India is wealthier. Facts are facts. The US will be claimed as the wealthier one. I wont claim that the present day Indian situation is merely a speed-bump, and that India still remains the richer country. Comprende ? Ashes might have a longer history, but in the recent past, Ind-Pak cricket has been better viewing ( and don't be short sighted in restricting yourselves to the last series, that'd be like pointing to India's superior growth rate as proof of it being wealthier than the US in the analogy).

 

[irfan]

Well, one last stab.

Now, India has historically (I'm talking millenia) been one of the richest countries on the planet. The US as we know it didnt even exist until around 500 years ago.

Present day situation: India is one of the poorer nations, and the US is perhaps the most prosperous nation on Earth.

Now just because India was richer for 4 millenia or so, compared to the Johnny come lately, the US, who has been more dominant for lets say 300 years, doesnt mean I'll go about claiming that India is wealthier. Facts are facts. The US will be claimed as the wealthier one. I wont claim that the present day Indian situation is merely a speed-bump, and that India still remains the richer country. Comprende ? Ashes might have a longer history, but in the recent past, Ind-Pak cricket has been better viewing ( and don't be short sighted in restricting yourselves to the last series, that'd be like pointing to India's superior growth rate as proof of it being wealthier than the US in the analogy).

well put - good use of analogies

 

[C_C]

I dont even understand the relevance of all that here. These folks are least likely to go to Stadium to watch cricket as most stadiums are located in big cities far away from villages. I dont understand how you can use this as an excuse to prove your point that test matches are watched more on television as opposed to ODIs. Because even if these folks watch cricket, they are going to be watching it on TV be it ODIs or Tests.

Show me where i compared Test popularity to ODIs- i've stated the reason why subcontinental folks rarely go for the tests - the entire objective of watching sports for the vast majority is that it is a contest- someone wins and someone loses. People arnt gonna bother sinking significant funds (when the disposable income in India is so much lower than OZ/ENG/NZ) for a day's worth of action when they KNOW that its not gonna be decieded today. And they cant take whole friggin 5 days off work. Regardless, my point was not to compare ODIs with Tests - my point was to state that there are far more followers of test cricket in India than the entire test cricket following population outside the subcontinent. Simply not showing up at grounds is not lack of popularity- whether one shows up at the ground or not is controlled by lots of factors, the prime of which is 'bang for one's buck' - which comes down to (you guessed it) : DISPOSABLE INCOME.

As per average commute time - i said that the vast majority of villagers either travel hours to get to work or spend 11-12 hours a day toiling away for menial existance.
But quite a few of them find time to huddle around a radio while eating their lunches, following scores and stuff.

Depends who you work for. If you work for top notch multinational, they aren't. If you work for TCS. Infy, Satyam etc then yes they are.

If you give me your MSN contact, i will introduce you to four dudes who work at the IND head offices for HP, IBM and Google. They can tell you how brutal their work hours are.

Yeah that is a fact, but it has nothing to do with your 'DISPOSABLE INCOME' theory. It is because India is still a developing country and cant be compared to Developed nationas like USA. I can tell you that life of Serbs, Albanians, Turks, Greeks, Polish, East Germans (pre 1988), Romanians, Balkan citizens etc isn't any better than that of Indians..

Sorry, thats not my theory. That is the theory of Nobel Lauriate Amartya Sen in economics. And i wouldnt be so hasty to dismiss the research of a nobel-prize winning economist in matters of economics.

 

[Sanz]

( and don't be short sighted in restricting yourselves to the last series

Yet you are short sighted enough to restrict yourself to 3 series out 15-20 played between the two countries.

 

[C_C]

How is 40-45 hours spread over 6 days brutal ? All I can say is you have NO CLUE about TISCO. I am from a steel town, TATANAGAR aka JAMSHEDPUR. My dad worked for tatas for 45 years, at least 10 of my uncles, cousins are still working for Tatas and that includes TISCO, Tata Motors (formerly Telco) and every other Tata company. I can tell you that people work there in 3 shifts 6-2, 2-10,10-6 and that includes 1 hour of break. They get paid time off of about 30-45 days per year..Hardly Brutal. Obviously I cant speak for Bhilai, but I guess that comes under SAIL (Steel Authority Of India Limited) and I have interacted with many people from SAIL Bokaro and I found their work hours much more relaxed than Tatas as SAIL is a semi govt organization compared to TISCO which is a private organization.

40-45 hours a week minimum + on call 2 weeks outta 4 per month = more brutal than the western counterpart.
For equivalent level of expertise and labour, Indian workers make less than western workers- in almost every single industry. Which is why you dont see plasmatron TVs and a sports car outside the garage of every other 27-28 year old engineer in India like you see in the states- dime a dozen.
And no, it has nothing to do with 'plasmatrons are more expensive in India' crap- if a product is manufactured in the nation, the cost of resources and labour equate in the said nation's monetary terms and values. Ie, its a damn sight cheaper to produce a plasmatron TV in India than in the US. But since the workers make less ( in absolute terms, once you account for inflation, currency exchange and value for money) than their western counterparts and therefore, have a larger % of their income devoted to sustainance and by corollary, a smaller % devoted to disposable activities/comforts.

 

[C_C]

Yet you are short sighted enough to restrict yourself to 3 series out 15-20 played between the two countries.

Three ?
The entire friggin 90s and 2000s were a sham as far as the Ashes were concerned, with ONE series where the score was 3-2, despite ENG winning a dead rubber.

 

[Sanz]

40-45 hours a week minimum + on call 2 weeks outta 4 per month = more brutal than the western counterpart.

As I said, you have no IDEA about how things work in steel plants. There is no such thing as ON CALL. If there is a major shutdown (which is once/twice on an avg. in an year) you will be called else no you are not on call that too only if you are the best else no one bothers to call you. A person in his shift is responsible for day to day operations. Next time you visit India, let me know I will arrange a tour for you in TELCO, TISCO, you can talk to real people and understand how it workd.

For equivalent level of expertise and labour, Indian workers make less than western workers- in almost every single industry. Which is why you dont see plasmatron TVs and a sports car outside the garage of every other 27-28 year old engineer in India like you see in the states- dime a dozen.

You must have lived in a different america then, because the USA I live in I see majority of those 27-28 year olds driving Honda Civics and toyota corollas, hardly the sports cars you have been talking about. Also I have seen what kind of card those walmart cashiers drive...the kind of cars you can buy for 500 bucks from pawn shops. Also why dont you take a survey of all those 27-28 years olds and tell us how many of those own plasmas. I dont know anyone.

And no, it has nothing to do with 'plasmatrons are more expensive in India' crap- if a product is manufactured in the nation, the cost of resources and labour equate in the said nation's monetary terms and values. Ie, its a damn sight cheaper to produce a plasmatron TV in India than in the US. But since the workers make less ( in absolute terms, once you account for inflation, currency exchange and value for money) than their western counterparts and therefore, have a larger % of their income devoted to sustainance and by corollary, a smaller % devoted to disposable activities/comforts.

Blah Blah Blah...that's why villagers in India dont go to stadiums to watch test cricket yet flock to watch ODIs.

 

[Sanz]

Three ?
The entire friggin 90s and 2000s were a sham as far as the Ashes were concerned, with ONE series where the score was 3-2, despite ENG winning a dead rubber.

First of all I was talking about India-Pak series. Secondly if those ashes series were sham then so was the current India-Pak series and most of India-Pak tests in last 50 years.

 

[C_C]

As I said, you have no IDEA about how things work in steel plants. There is no such thing as ON CALL. If there is a major shutdown (which is once/twice on an avg. in an year) you will be called else no you are not on call that too only if you are the best else no one bothers to call you. A person in his shift is responsible for day to day operations. Next time you visit India, let me know I will arrange a tour for you in TELCO, TISCO, you can talk to real people and understand how it workd.

Sorry but either there is different policy at different companies or your information is incorrect. In production plants, there are 2-3 supervising engineers and they share the 'on call' duty amongst themselves. I know someone who does it in Bhilai and my dad has done so in the past for oil plants.

You must have lived in a different america then, because the USA I live in I see majority of those 27-28 year olds driving Honda Civics and toyota corollas, hardly the sports cars you have been talking about. Also I have seen what kind of card those walmart cashiers drive...the kind of cars you can buy for 500 bucks from pawn shops. Also why dont you take a survey of all those 27-28 years olds and tell us how many of those own plasmas. I dont know anyone

Even if its a honda civic or a corolla, its way above the standard of living for same job-holders in India. And i was talking about engineers and i know several from university who work in the US and make 50-60K a year. And like i said- do some research if you dont beleive me - it is one of the most widely known economic fact about the developed world and the underdeveloped/developing world - the reason for low living standards is because of less disposable incomes.
And its disposable income which deciedes whether you are gonna go to the game or not - unless ofcourse, you are a real irresponsible dude(which i dont think you are).
.

Blah Blah Blah...that's why villagers in India dont go to stadiums to watch test cricket yet flock to watch ODIs.

Lets drop it - you are not seeing the connection.

 

[C_C]

First of all I was talking about India-Pak series. Secondly if those ashes series were sham then so was the current India-Pak series and most of India-Pak tests in last 50 years.

Perhaps. But the three IND-PAK series ( 99,04,05) have provided more entertainment than any ashes from the 1990-2004 period. In all three of those IND-PAK series, both teams competed till the last session, displayed some awe-inspiring cricket and provided more entertainment than any ashes series in the abovementioned period.

 

[marc71178]

Three ?
The entire friggin 90s and 2000s were a sham as far as the Ashes were concerned, with ONE series where the score was 3-2, despite ENG winning a dead rubber.

But by the same token, all but 2 or 3 India-Pakistan series have been shams...

 

[C_C]

But by the same token, all but 2 or 3 India-Pakistan series have been shams...

?! 99, 04 and 05 were far from shams.

 

[marc71178]

Yes, and those are the 2 or 3 exceptions.

In one case you're choosing a period to highlight as proof that one series is poor, yet on the other you're ignoring the overwhelming majority of series to make your point seem right.

So which is it or are you going to select the games to suit your argument?