New Zealand doom and gloom thread

[thundaboult]

its become really tough to feel optimistic about nzc for a while now, personally i had fell in love with em again when baz came in but its become so dull and mundane under stead/kane or stead/southee....just so many wrong selections and missing the boat with youth....never listening to the nz public and fans on who they wanna see

 

[jcas0167]

Bit of gossip for the boys on CW. I was down in Christchurch to catch a few days of the test, caught up with a buddy who is in and around the NZ set up (not giving away to much sorry) Same guy who gave me this info a week before the 2nd South African test




We might have a new selector after this summer, Stead and Wells really don’t see eye to eye. Wells doesn’t think he can work with him. He believes the time is now to push through abit of a youth movement, believes there is plenty of talent around to do it. Stead on the other hand would rather see guys play 4-5 years of domestic cricket before getting there chance.

He believes Stead relies too much on world tournaments coming up (20/20 World Cup every second year, Champions Trophy, then World Cup) as a reason to not bring youth in, needing experience etc.

Certain players Wells believe NZ should move on from, brought up Sodhi being one of them. Not a test player, below average one day player, average 20/20 bowler who can’t bat or feild. Stead and Sodhi get on well and wouldn’t have a bar of it. Not the only player but just an example, Stead won’t even hear him out on things like this

Few other things, didn’t like the hype Rachin was getting after the World Cup. Him coming into the test team was Wells and Ronchi, Stead wanted to keep Nicholls on. In fact it was Ronchi who pushed for Young to go ahead of Nicholls the pecking order to.

Wells is a big fan of Max Chu, believes he’s the best gloveman in the country. Has him behind Blundell. Stead doesn’t, reckons he needs to do his time like Fletcher and Cleaver have. ie too young.

Wells believes the days of us playing 4 seamers at home is done. Wants the team to develop a spinning option.

Essentially though he just doesn’t believe he can work with him. To stuck in his ways, to close to many of the senior players. Isn’t the job he signed up for.

Largely confirms what a lot on here suspected although Stead being such a strong Sodhi supporter is mildly surprising to me. I thought he previously backed Astle over him for the 2019 WC but Kane wanted Sodhi. Wells sounds like a breath of fresh air, hopefully he doesn't pack it in.

 

[RMBolton]

Bit of gossip for the boys on CW. I was down in Christchurch to catch a few days of the test, caught up with a buddy who is in and around the NZ set up (not giving away to much sorry) Same guy who gave me this info a week before the 2nd South African test




We might have a new selector after this summer, Stead and Wells really don’t see eye to eye. Wells doesn’t think he can work with him. He believes the time is now to push through abit of a youth movement, believes there is plenty of talent around to do it. Stead on the other hand would rather see guys play 4-5 years of domestic cricket before getting there chance.

He believes Stead relies too much on world tournaments coming up (20/20 World Cup every second year, Champions Trophy, then World Cup) as a reason to not bring youth in, needing experience etc.

Certain players Wells believe NZ should move on from, brought up Sodhi being one of them. Not a test player, below average one day player, average 20/20 bowler who can’t bat or feild. Stead and Sodhi get on well and wouldn’t have a bar of it. Not the only player but just an example, Stead won’t even hear him out on things like this

Few other things, didn’t like the hype Rachin was getting after the World Cup. Him coming into the test team was Wells and Ronchi, Stead wanted to keep Nicholls on. In fact it was Ronchi who pushed for Young to go ahead of Nicholls the pecking order to.

Wells is a big fan of Max Chu, believes he’s the best gloveman in the country. Has him behind Blundell. Stead doesn’t, reckons he needs to do his time like Fletcher and Cleaver have. ie too young.

Wells believes the days of us playing 4 seamers at home is done. Wants the team to develop a spinning option.

Essentially though he just doesn’t believe he can work with him. To stuck in his ways, to close to many of the senior players. Isn’t the job he signed up for.

Makes sense. O'Rourke & Sears getting debuts has Wells' fingerprints all over. No way Stead wanted that.

On Chu, it's been nice that he's playing more of a role this season with the bat. His work with the gloves was never the thing, but his work with the bat. It's sort of ironic that the "oldie" keepers are struggling a bit (Cleaver a little, Fletcher a lot) this PS while Chu & Hay are performing. Hell, Chu & DP have been carrying Otago with the bat this PS.

 

[social]

Kiwis biggest problem is the unavailability of Jamieson IMO

Guy is a world class bowler and Henry/O’Rourke/Jamieson is a quality attack but…

 

[jcas0167]

Kiwis biggest problem is the unavailability of Jamieson IMO

Guy is a world class bowler and Henry/O’Rourke/Jamieson is a quality attack but…

Him developing back problems just when he seemed set to be the mainstay of our attack for the next 5 years was tragic. The Guardian had a great article about him before the England series in 2022.

Primal power of Kyle Jamieson is one of Test cricket’s great wonders | Jonathan Liew

The towering New Zealand bowler’s almost mythic qualities will be a major hurdle for England to negotiate if they are to secure victory in the first Test at Lord’s

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bahnz]

Few other things, didn’t like the hype Rachin was getting after the World Cup. Him coming into the test team was Wells and Ronchi, Stead wanted to keep Nicholls on. In fact it was Ronchi who pushed for Young to go ahead of Nicholls the pecking order to.

Lol, I heard literally the exact same thing from someone with a connection to the Black Caps I spoke to at the Basin.

@SteveNZ you still want some weapons grade bullshit? Coz the price just went waaaay up.

 

[Bahnz]

Makes sense. O'Rourke & Sears getting debuts has Wells' fingerprints all over. No way Stead wanted that.

On Chu, it's been nice that he's playing more of a role this season with the bat. His work with the gloves was never the thing, but his work with the bat. It's sort of ironic that the "oldie" keepers are struggling a bit (Cleaver a little, Fletcher a lot) this PS while Chu & Hay are performing. Hell, Chu & DP have been carrying Otago with the bat this PS.

Yeah the way they took Sears along to Australia in 2022 and didn't play him even in the dead rubber shows Stead's attitude perfectly. His attitude seems to be that this is the last generation of genuine talent that NZ will ever produce and he intends to milk it until it's a dried husk. Somebody please fire this spud.

In the light of this, SP's selection feels like a compromise between the two. Like Stead accepted playing O'Rourke when he thought he had Southee, Henry and KJ headlining the attack, but once KJ dropped out Stead insisted on a more experienced player to replace him and with Doug seemingly out with injury and Wells digging his heels in about Wagner, SP got the nod.

 

[RMBolton]

Yeah the way they took Sears along to Australia in 2022 and didn't play him even in the dead rubber shows Stead's attitude perfectly. His attitude seems to be that this is the last generation of genuine talent that NZ will ever produce and he intends to milk it until it's a dried husk. Somebody please fire this spud.

The Chappell-Hadlee in Cairns? He went there? Wow. Who got injured for him to get called up?

Then again, I vaguely remember him with the Euro T20 squad.

 

[straw man]

Some quality scuttlebutt from Howsie, ngl

 

[straw man]

I like the snippet on Max Chu being the best gloveman (which I will now take as the literal gospel truth 4ever), because I'm never otherwise going to know who has the best keeping skills domestically. Most relevant for test wicketkeeper and if he keeps performing then yes could line up to succeed Blundell. M Hay the other leading young candidate, by the looks of things.

First though we need a new white-ball keeper to replace Latham, and ideally to relieve Conway of the gloves in T20, and Chu doesn't seem like a white-ball batsman. I would say it will be interesting to see what they decide there, but it will probably just be to change nothing.

 

[SteveNZ]

Lol, I heard literally the exact same thing from someone with a connection to the Black Caps I spoke to at the Basin.

@SteveNZ you still want some weapons grade bull****? Coz the price just went waaaay up.

Haha OK, well you've got corroboration there, so I offer my apologies. And now that I'm getting a better impression of who Stead is, this doesn't surprise me. Bloody hell, conservative doesn't quite accurately describe it, does it?

Next he'll go all Mr Burns on it and ask O'Rourke to cut his sideburns.

Now Henry Nicholls, there's a haircut you can set your watch to.

 

[SteveNZ]

Bit of gossip for the boys on CW. I was down in Christchurch to catch a few days of the test, caught up with a buddy who is in and around the NZ set up (not giving away to much sorry) Same guy who gave me this info a week before the 2nd South African test




We might have a new selector after this summer, Stead and Wells really don’t see eye to eye. Wells doesn’t think he can work with him. He believes the time is now to push through abit of a youth movement, believes there is plenty of talent around to do it. Stead on the other hand would rather see guys play 4-5 years of domestic cricket before getting there chance.

He believes Stead relies too much on world tournaments coming up (20/20 World Cup every second year, Champions Trophy, then World Cup) as a reason to not bring youth in, needing experience etc.

Certain players Wells believe NZ should move on from, brought up Sodhi being one of them. Not a test player, below average one day player, average 20/20 bowler who can’t bat or feild. Stead and Sodhi get on well and wouldn’t have a bar of it. Not the only player but just an example, Stead won’t even hear him out on things like this

Few other things, didn’t like the hype Rachin was getting after the World Cup. Him coming into the test team was Wells and Ronchi, Stead wanted to keep Nicholls on. In fact it was Ronchi who pushed for Young to go ahead of Nicholls the pecking order to.

Wells is a big fan of Max Chu, believes he’s the best gloveman in the country. Has him behind Blundell. Stead doesn’t, reckons he needs to do his time like Fletcher and Cleaver have. ie too young.

Wells believes the days of us playing 4 seamers at home is done. Wants the team to develop a spinning option.

Essentially though he just doesn’t believe he can work with him. To stuck in his ways, to close to many of the senior players. Isn’t the job he signed up for.

I truly hope it is Stead, not Wells that steps away from that partnership. I believe Weenink will have strong thoughts on what an effective leader is, and know that Stead isn't it.

Interesting, though, that quotes attributed to Wells were very strong on Nicholls literally as he was being dropped, then never picked again.

 

[jcas0167]

I like the snippet on Max Chu being the best gloveman (which I will now take as the literal gospel truth 4ever), because I'm never otherwise going to know who has the best keeping skills domestically. Most relevant for test wicketkeeper and if he keeps performing then yes could line up to succeed Blundell. M Hay the other leading young candidate, by the looks of things.

First though we need a new white-ball keeper to replace Latham, and ideally to relieve Conway of the gloves in T20, and Chu doesn't seem like a white-ball batsman. I would say it will be interesting to see what they decide there, but it will probably just be to change nothing.

Chu does look like a natural keeper and I like how vocal he is in Super Smash. Seems like a good ball striker particularly through the off-side. Hay might be the better white ball option - seems to have nailed the reverse sweeps/scoops. Impressed on the A tour to Australia.

 

[ataraxia]

As much as I'm no exception to the truth that everyone likes Max Chu, his current mode of batting leaves a lot to be desired. Few big knocks, lots of dinky little ones – his averages reflect that. That sort of stuff can transfer to tests very well, but we shouldn't be shocked if he gets a callup soon and averages mid-20s.

Great leadership potential though.

 

[_Ed_]

Lol, I heard literally the exact same thing from someone with a connection to the Black Caps I spoke to at the Basin.

@SteveNZ you still want some weapons grade bull****? Coz the price just went waaaay up.

I really didn't want to believe it tbf. For all that he's lacking as a coach, I thought Stead was fundamentally well-meaning and wanted the best for his players. But apparently not.

Developing young players is such a key part of the job. How the **** can you resent their success and then try to avoid selecting them? It boggles the mind, and if it's true he really shouldn't be in the job.

I guess Stead might have a subconscious thing going on where he doesn't want to admit he ballsed up by selecting Ravindra as a bowling all-rounder (when he picked him at all), and having that exposed as a balls-up when Ravindra had immediate success up the order?

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Anyone reckon we should be giving some of the youngsters a go if not for the first team, then front and centre for the A team? Would Stead have selected Williamson, back in the day, eh? Let's give Mariu and Heaphy a spin for the As, alongside Chu and Foulkes. That's surely what the A team is for, less so than giving over 32s a day in the sun when you have no intention to select them for the main team.

 

[Immenso]

Anyone reckon we should be giving some of the youngsters a go if not for the first team, then front and centre for the A team? Would Stead have selected Williamson, back in the day, eh? Let's give Mariu and Heaphy a spin for the As, alongside Chu and Foulkes. That's surely what the A team is for, less so than giving over 32s a day in the sun when you have no intention to select them for the main team.

I think that would happen anyway, even with the same selectors/coach as the last few years.

We have had some old/bad 'A' teams recently, but they were as much about circumstance than philosophy.

Last season when Aus 'A' came here. Every young bowler was injured (Smith, Sears, Fisher, Shipley, Foulkes) except O'Rourke.

It's partly the same reason why it was Tickner/Kuggeleijn/Bracewell/Duffy who were the seamers for England test series last year.

Although O'Rourke didn't play the home 'A' series, he did go on the away 'A" tour 6 months later (although, with zero cricket having occurred in that time to prompt that change, so don't know what prompted it? that tour was still before Wells took over).

They did throw in the very green Abbas for both series. Chu didn't get picked, but the similarly aged Hay did go on tour (that was quite left field IMO, and on my assumption his batting is rated considerably more promising).

I think there was quite a mediocre mini-generation between the 88-92 born guys, and the current youths (say born post-2000).

I remember being hugeley frustrated at some of those 'A" teams with averages ages of 29. But when I tried to come up with alternatives it was doing things like picking hail-marys like Tim Robinson based on one FC century etc etc

The next few 'A' teams should be quite fun. I don't think we are looking at another 88-92 generation. But we are looking at an above average looking crop IMO.

 

[Bahnz]

Anyone reckon we should be giving some of the youngsters a go if not for the first team, then front and centre for the A team? Would Stead have selected Williamson, back in the day, eh? Let's give Mariu and Heaphy a spin for the As, alongside Chu and Foulkes. That's surely what the A team is for, less so than giving over 32s a day in the sun when you have no intention to select them for the main team.

I think a mix of younger guys and more experienced fringe players is good, both for the selectors and the players involved. So I'd be fine with sending a Cooper or a Will O'Donnell along with a Heaphy or a Mariu, but I think with the batting in particular the A side should currently be weighted more towards youth and development as that's were the majority of retirements are going to occur over the next 3-4 years. And the more experienced players you send need to be people you're genuinely thinking about for national selection in the event of an injury. There's no point playing Sean Solia for NZA if you're then just going to ignore him when one of our frontline openers gets injured.

 

[Flem274*]

Yeah Young, Nicholls and Chapman should be the batting spine of the A side as they're the obvious next cabs off the rank.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Yeah Young, Nicholls and Chapman should be the batting spine of the A side as they're the obvious next cabs off the rank.

I'm just not sure what you gain from playing guys like Young, Nicholls, Bruce or the SP. You know what you're gonna get from them. If there was a sudden middle order emergency and you needed to select Bruce, then his appearance or not for the A team isn't going to make you think differently about what his returns are likely to be. Sure, some experience is needed in the A team.

If I look back to that NZ A vs. Australia A series, the only players below 30 were Foxcroft (25), O'Donnell (29) and Duffy (29).

2nd Test, in came Mitch Hay, Abbas, Ashok and O'Rourke but that squad is still suffering from the same maturity bias as the Test team. Of the batsmen in that first test (and the 2nd for that matter) they're going to be retiring or declining at exactly the same time as Mitchell, Williamson, Nicholls, Young, Conway etc. Great that Abbas was there, but Cooper and Solia are not realistically replacements for Latham/Conway.